German Luger and Moral Struggle

[tipoc]

I think redlightrich has settled it.

One other point; it's more likely that any weapon used by Germany during WWII saw more action against Soviet troops, Polish soldiers, in Belgium and France, in the Middle East against the British, etc. then against American troops. Not to mention the many civilians of many nations who were murdered or executed.

If I had a dollar for every time I heard a story about how somebody's relative took their wartime Luger off of a "German Officer", or off a soldier's corpse, I'd have a large stack of bills and the German Army likely never had that many officers. When the German Army surrendered, immense stacks of various weapons were collected. Many of the most portable weapons were stolen...or more politely, allowed to walk away as trophies of war.

There were also hundreds of thousands of the same (Lugers, Mausers, P-38s, etc. ) sold in the U.S. and internationally after the war as surplus that became instant trophies, with stories attached, once bought at a gun show or sold to a co-worker. Collectors know this, you buy the gun and not the story, unless there is paper attached.

tipoc

 

[g.willikers]

Maybe this will help:
The people who invented and built the Luger were very different than the Nazi thugs who killed with them.
The gun does not share their guilt any more than vintage war years BMW motorcycles.
If you admire the design, just get one, don't hurt anyone with it and all will be well.

 

[44 AMP]

My logic is pretty much as follows: The act of killing another person is evil. The act of war is evil. Evil may not preclude necessity, and in fact the act of war and killing has driven much innovation in the course of human events.

I follow you logic, and understand your reasoning. I do differ a bit on the matter of "killing = evil" though.

Perhaps it is just the way we define terms, but I don't recognize necessary killing as evil. MURDER is evil. I make a distinction between killing and murder. And, so does the law.

I do agree that warfare drives technological innovation (actually the pace of innovation), particularly when both sides are at roughly the same technological level.

 

[Pond James Pond]

MURDER is evil.

I would even say that this is subjective to a point.

Whilst clearly illegal I think we can imagine a scenario when a person was so abhorrent that their elimination was ethically justified or a net benefit to society as a whole.

A hypothetical example: Had someone killed Hitler in cold-blood it would have been murder but I dare say we would not look on the murderer with total disgust.

 

[ThomasT]

Every time I shoot them I utter a hearty FU to the Nazis.

Bravo! That's the spirit.

 

[manta49]

Not something would bother me, as long as i got it at a good price. Having said that i would want it for its historical interest, it might have being used kill it might never have being used in anger. On the other hand a person in the gun club i go to shot himself with his .22 handgun, would i want that frearm no.

 

[cjwils]

If I had a dollar for every time I heard a story about how somebody's relative took their wartime Luger off of a "German Officer", or off a soldier's corpse, I'd have a large stack of bills and the German Army likely never had that many officers. When the German Army surrendered, immense stacks of various weapons were collected. Many of the most portable weapons were stolen...or more politely, allowed to walk away as trophies of war.

That seems a little bit like a put down of what I said about my dad above. I am sorry that I don't have the proof in my possession, or I would scan and upload it. My brother has these things. There is a photo of my dad taken somewhere in the Black Forest of Germany several weeks before the war ended, and the above mentioned Luger in its holster is on his hip. Clearly not collected from a pile when the war ended. Also, the family has a letter signed by his commanding officer giving him permission to take it home.

 

[Evan Thomas]

Many of the most portable weapons were stolen...or more politely, allowed to walk away as trophies of war.

According to my father, the polite, accepted term for this was "liberated."

 

[tipoc]

cjwills,

I said nothing about your father. A letter from a commanding officer allowing the possession of a trophy, usually with the gun's serial number was the accepted procedure and is accepted as "paper" on a gun. Many were written and many not written. Sometimes those letters were lost and don't stay with an old gun.

There were many reports of GIs picking up P38s and Lugers during the war. In some cases because they had no sidearms and wanted one, in other cases in preference to 1911s.

But in most cases they were acquired from a stack of surrendered weapons, from robbing the dead or from trades (on the ship rides back home trophies were swapped and traded along with stories) or bought at wars end.

tipoc

 

[curt.45]

i didn't read much past the first post, my .02 buy a nice WWII 1911 and keep it in the safe next to the Luger to remind it! its what i do with my German guns.

oh and my ancestors were German and Dad was in the army (ours)

 

[jag2]

For those of us of a certain age will remember when Japanese cars started to be imported into the US. There were a lot of WWII vets that said they would never buy one of those Jap cars. Feelings change over time, maybe it takes bit longer where guns are involved.

 

[44 AMP]

MURDER is evil.

I would even say that this is subjective to a point.

Whilst clearly illegal I think we can imagine a scenario when a person was so abhorrent that their elimination was ethically justified or a net benefit to society as a whole.

My point it that while all murder is killing, not all killing is murder. Our legal system uses "murder" for one term (some jurisdictions use another word) and "manslaughter" for another. Which one applies depends on the circumstances, although in general, manslaughter is applied when there was no intent to kill.

I define murder as (intentional/deliberate) killing for a profit. The profit might be money, or something else, including the "pleasure of killing". Something that benefits the murderer, and pleases them.

Killing in self defense is not, in my book, murder. Killing someone "who needed killin'" absent immediate threat to self or others is legally murder, but might not morally be murder, it might be justice, if it is justified.

People's individual moral outlook and the legal viewpoint are sometimes different.

For those of us of a certain age will remember when Japanese cars started to be imported into the US. There were a lot of WWII vets that said they would never buy one of those Jap cars. Feelings change over time, maybe it takes bit longer where guns are involved.

Every Dec 7th, I have the urge to torpedo a Toyota.....
(not because I was there, simply out of respect for those who were...)

One old fellow I knew (now passed) had a couple of Samurai Swords, and Japanese flags. He was approached by agents representing some Japanese families, wanting the items returned to their "rightful" owners. I believe they even offered to pay..

His response was a blistering four letter word tirade that could be summed up as "no xxxxing way!!" I TOOK those from the (expletive deleted) who was trying to KILL ME!!! I'm NOT giving them back!!!

Both his sons, who now possess the items, feel the same way, though they are a bit more polite about expressing it.

If you have a war trophy WITH the bring back papers, put the originals in safe storage and keep a copy with the gun. Surviving papers are much more rare than the guns themselves, and are the accepted historical proof, and do add value for collectors. And, this applies to US arms as well. If paperwork exists documenting the guns history, save and protect it!

 

[P5 Guy]

My Dad was in North Africa and Italy and never saw a German or Italian soldier that was armed. He did see plenty in the POW cages.
Dad brought back a K98 dot44 and an AC42 P38 that he got as trade for a jerry can of gasoline and some wool socks.
My Dad's job was recovering stuff that was left behind or too broken to keep going.

 

[jmr40]

You're thinking too much. Buy the gun and enjoy it.

 

[madmo44mag]

A little side note.
I had one of my K98 Mauser out at the range one day.
A older man approached me and asked if that was a German rifle.
I said yes and pointed out the barrel markings.
He asked if he cold hold it.
I said sure.
He began to cry.
He was Jewish and his father had been killed by a German soldier in WW2 with a K98.
He made the comment of “I wounder how many Jews this gun killed”
I said I do not know and it may have never killed a Jew just Allied soldiers.
I then told him this is a weapon of war. It’s job was to kill the enemy. This rifle had no say as to who it fought for just a job to do.
He asked to shoot the rifle and put 4 rounds down range.
He stood and handed my rifle back with a smile and said” the German made a fine rifle”
He thanked me and went on his way.

I collect WW2 battle rifles and pistols.
There is not a battle implement I own that I have not asked how many people have you killed - combatant or civilian?
The answer is always the same - many!

I hold them, feel their cold steel and wood and wounder.
I show them the love and care they deserve so the future generations can ask the same questions - how many did you kill and did you save a mans life?
It does not matter which side they were on; they are tools of war, death and destruction.
The only emotion I have is did it serve it’s owner well. Did it perform when it had too. Did it kill the aggressor and save a mans life?
That’s what they were designed to do.
So don’t feel bad and in MHO only care that they server there owner well and preserve the history.
Enjoy shooting them and sharing them with others.

 

[doofus47]

It's a pistol with a bit more history etched in the scratches.

As with any contemplation of history: don't glorify it; don't fear it.

 

[jonnyc]

Some of my favorites are Russian Captures. You gotta figure the guy who carried it eastward very possibly didn't survive, then the Russians held on to it in case we invaded during the Cold War, and then they fell and it ended up in my little Capitalist hands and I get to play with it. Lots of history and good feelings there.

 

[curt.45]

madmo44mag, very good post.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

Probably much more likely to have killed a communist Russian than a US soldier, even if found on the Western front.

Russians had almost 50 times the losses of US.
Non-Chinese(primarily fighting Japanese) allies combined only about 1/10 the soviet losses.

I had a decent collection of arms. I enjoyed shooting them, learning about them, etc. I've slowly sold them off and expect to be without any this time next year.

 

[shafter]

To the victor goes the spoils.