German Luger and Moral Struggle

[redlightrich]

Hello, being born in the early 60's, I grew up watching war movies. My mom. dad, aunts and uncles continually talked about WWII and how it affected their lives. They were a great generation indeed. There is no doubt in my mind that WWII helped shape their lives. Their continual war stories piqued my interest in wartime items.
I also grew up looking at the Luger. I love the shape and toggle. I have seen many elders war " souvenir" and my admiration of this gun grew stronger. Yes I love the 1911 and other American arms, but the Luger always made me want one.

Fast forward to today. The family is grown, it's safe to keep firearms around the home. I can afford to splurge on myself a little.

I decided to buy a Luger. I had only 2 requirements, I wanted a nice condition "shooter" which meant it doesn't need to be numbers match, and I wanted one made for WWII so 1939-1945 or thereabouts.

Then I began to search, and then SMACK it hit me.... This weapon may have taken the life or lives of US Soldiers! Gosh, I called my older brother, who collects wartime items, and asked his thoughts about my thought. He said, " yes Rich, that is what that gun was made for".. to kill allied troops. He then asked" what are you afraid of". I couldn't explain thoroughly, but I felt that I was then idolizing an object that goes against every bit of my being. Designed to harm the US and it's soldiers. PLEASE DON'T TAKE OFFENSE IF YOU OWN ONE!!!!!!!! I am not judging you. I don't think poorly of you. The truth is, if I didn't have a large family, which slowed down the ability to purchase this sooner, I would have several by now.

I am looking for a way to view my ownership of this gun without disrespecting the life of the soldier or soldiers that it may have taken.

This thread is written with respect and sincerity. I am not trying to, and will not engage in a flame war. I am not trying to elicit anger. I am just trying to get past this thought that will prevent me from ever buying something that I have wanted all my life. If I can't, then so be it. I have lived this long, and can continue. But I sure can imaging holding it, and thinking of my dad, his brothers, and some great stories they have. My mom's brothers also had great stories. Even my mom, who had to leave school and go to work because the family lost the income of her brothers who were all in the war. I have a passport, that my dad took from an SS. Sorry, I can't make the proper S using my computer. I would put those 2 items together if I buy. My dad told me normal German soldiers when captured would immediately claim NON SS. They felt they may receive mercy, that would not be shown to SS.

Sorry that I digress. Many of our parents were thru the war. Gosh, there may be a few of us who actually were in WWII, and if you were, I salute you, thank you, and respect what you did for our country.......

Again.....
This thread is written with respect and sincerity. I am not trying to, and will not engage in a flame war. I am not trying to elicit anger.

God bless America, God bless our soldiers, veterans and citizens!!!

Rich

 

[Ricklin]

It's an object, and only an object. I think you are somehow attaching more to it than that.
Owning a wartime Luger is not the same as hiding Nazi war criminals in your gun safe.

 

[tangolima]

Don't get one if it make you feel uncomfortable. Different people have lines drawn at different places in the sand. Nothing wrong with that.

I own a few wwii military arms, used by either sides. It doesn't bother me. I can even tolerate swastika or hammer and sickle engravings. To me they are both symbols of evilness. But I don't do any flag or banner of such. It is just too blatant.

-TL

 

[BarryLee]

My Grandfathers brother was killed during the attack on Pearl Harbor and like many Americans he hated the Japanese. Even though my grandfather was probably more progressive than most Southerners of his era on matters of race I’m not sure he ever totally lost those feelings. Fast-forward to the 1980’s and my uncle is stationed in Japan, so the only way to see their grand kids was for my Grandparents to go there. Bottom line they loved the country and found the Japanese people to be wonderful.

I guess my point is that yes that gun may have taken the life of an allied soldier, but if it did it was probably fired by some scared German who just wanted to be somewhere else. So, to me many of our enemies are not that much different from us they were just forced by their governments to go to war and they did what they believed to be right at the time.

 

[K_Mac]

The only weapon I have that was in service during that period is a British Enfield .303. The guy I purchased it from took it on a trade, but was uncomfortable with the knowledge that it could have been used to take lives. It does not bother me, but I would not own a weapon used by the Nazis for the reasons given. At the end of the day though, they are simply objects used by evil people and owning one does not impute evil to the collector. Those that collect because they admire the Nazi military machine are another story.

 

[RickB]

Get a commercial pistol made in the interwar years.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but the idea that a gun is "good" or "bad" is irrational.
A lot of gun control is based on the belief that "bad guns" can be identified and legislated against; don't fall into that trap.

 

[P5 Guy]

Luger and the Great War

The standard service pistol for most of the German military was the P'38 during the Second World War. The P'08 was standard for the First World War.
While many P'08s turn up as souvenirs any you may find for sale were most likely taken from a dead soldier or a prisoner.
If you are just interested in a shooter there were quite a number of 'Original Parabellum Pistols' made by MAUSER imported to the US. Never fired in anger by a soldier at one on our side.

 

[K_Mac]

RickB, I agree completely that guns are neither good nor bad. An emotional response to an object connected to a significant event is not necessarily irrational though. It is the way humans are wired. You cannot rationally conclude that someone uncomfortable with weapons used by an evil empire is somehow supporting gun control.

 

[TunnelRat]

I don't believe that guns or any inanimate object are inherently evil. People that use it determine the actions. That said, I wouldn't own a Japanese WWII firearm and I'd even pause about a German WWII firearm. I grew up listening to bits and pieces of what my grandfather went through in the Pacific and I'm not going to lie, part of me would hold an Arisaka and wonder if it was ever pointed at my grandfather. My relatives that fought in the European theater fought above it so I wouldn't have the same feeling, though I'd still give a pause. Is that rational? Well it does seem to contradict my first statement. Thing is I'm human, I'm not a robot and not everything I do is rational. But this is just me.

 

[tallball]

I have an old German military pistol that might have been used in the war. My grandpa is gone now, but I don't think he would have minded. He personally tried to bring back every souvenir he could.

 

[PatientWolf]

I understand and certainly it is a purchase you would need to be comfortable with.

If it were me, I would look at it no differently than I would look at a modern weapon that the liberals claim are "evil". The weapon is an inanimate object and bears no responsibility. The responsibility is fully upon the user for any way it is used.

 

[ThomasT]

Remember, guns don't kill people. people kill people. Thats the whole argument against gun bans. If somebody wants to kill someone else they will find a way to do it gun or not.

You are more likely to find a rifle that was used to kill than a handgun. I have a 98 that has been sporterized and still has the nazi dirty bird stamps on it. Did it kill an allied soldier? I don't know and don't worry about it. If it did. Thats what it was designed to do. But the gun didn't fire itself. A soldier in an army pulled the trigger.

 

[MarkGlazer]

The first thing that comes to mind in this thread is our own Civil War. Many collect relics and I doubt they give the same type of consideration that Mr. redlightrich has with his thoughts on WW II. History is something that we can't change, rather preserve and teach future generations. What matters today is your respect for those events.

By the way, a 50's era Luger resides in my safe. My father-in-law carried it in Korea. It's a piece of history that I preserve with respect and appreciation that a period of time in our lives happened and can not be changed. I never dwell on the events that occurred nor have I ever asked my father-in-law about his role during the conflict (and he hasn't discussed it with me in the 30+ years I've known him). He gifted the weapon to my wife with the understanding that it's a piece of his past to be handed down over time.

Go in peace.

 

[lee n. field]

Then I began to search, and then SMACK it hit me.... This weapon may have taken the life or lives of US Soldiers! Gosh, I called my older brother, who collects wartime items, and asked his thoughts about my thought. He said, " yes Rich, that is what that gun was made for".. to kill allied troops.

We won. They lost. We get to play with their stuff.

 

[ttarp]

I've had the same though on occasion about my 1939 K98, sometimes I get a bad taste in my mouth thinking that rifle might have been used to take a fellow countrymans life.

On the other hand, I can look at it as "the spoils of war", a trophy if you will of our soldiers sacrifice and our victory.

And your friends statement isn't wholly accurate, they weren't made to kill allied troops per se, they were designed before the Great War even, to defend their country, not any different than say, the M1 rifle.

If you'll feel guilty about owning one I'd say pass, but I wouldn't let what others might think stop you from getting one. Good luck on your decision either way.

 

[Pond James Pond]

Many times we point out to people who are against gun ownership that the ill done with guns is wholly the responsibility of the people wielding them acting due to their own motives, not the weapons.

I'd therefore the same must be said for that Luger or indeed any other gun. Indeed, Mosins may have fired on Germans, but they were also known to be fired at Estonian civilians, Latvians, Poles et al etc after the occupation of all those countries by the Soviet Union, but people buy those quite happily.

So really it boils down to accepting that what was done with it isn't somehow integral to the gun's properties: it's just a device.

 

[Skadoosh]

Do you never again pick up the hammer that smashed and bloodied your thumb? The gun is tool. The murderer is the man.

 

[Deaf Smith]

This weapon may have taken the life or lives of US Soldiers!

That is no dilemma to me. Civil war weapons may very well have taken lives of Americans, one side or another.

But Nazi weapons I won't own cause God knows if any innocent Jews, Christians, Gypsies, 'undesirables', etc... were MURDERED with that weapon.


Now Italian, I don't mind. I have a Beretta 1934 .380 made in 1941 (Royal Army.) But then, I really doubt the Italians used it to murder anyone.

And Japanese were simply barbaric to everyone...

But Nazi? No. They were systematic mass serial killers.

Deaf

 

[Pilot]

A gun is just a tool. It isn't the gun's fault, it is the person's fault. I have a 1941 Mauser Luger with all the Nazi markings. I find it an interesting piece of history, and an excellent shooter. Guns don't kill, people do.

We preach to this to the liberals, why then is this any different?

 

[zukiphile]

It's a pistol. like any other.