Garand ka-boom

Jim Watson

New member
A primer is (properly) sensitized by prestressing the pellet against the anvil while seating it to the bottom of the pocket.

What additional effect might arise from repeatedly slamming the bolt down on a round in a rusty clip? Even more sensitive than designed?
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
Even more sensitive than designed?
Maybe. Or maybe it had nothing to do with the primer and it was just that the energy required to strip the round was so great that there wasn't enough remaining bolt energy to get the bolt fully closed, resulting in an out-of-battery firing.
 

Homerboy

Moderator
Wouldn't it be obvious if the bolt and op rod wasn't fully closed. I guess if you were shooting fast you wouldn't notice it.
 

thump_rrr

New member
Wouldn't it be obvious if the bolt and op rod wasn't fully closed. I guess if you were shooting fast you wouldn't notice it.
I can't even count how many people I've seen pull the trigger on a pistol with the slide locked back and the slide on a pistol is directly in your line of sight.
 

spaniel

New member
"Wouldn't it be obvious if the bolt and op rod wasn't fully closed. I guess if you were shooting fast you wouldn't notice it."

It would…if you stopped, got your head of of position, and visually checked the bolt position between every shot. I've never seen anyone shoot a semi auto in this fashion though.
 

spaniel

New member
"How did the extractor dig into the metal of the barrel when it let go if it wasn't resting against it, in battery, when it happened?

That's not an accusation, it's a question."

Since part of the bolt split, the extractor was not held in and displaced upward into the hood surrounding the entrance to the chamber, which stopped it from coming free of the bolt. I had to whack it back in position with a hammer after getting the case out. This is why in the pic the peen is far to the left of where it would have been if the bolt rotated closed.

Since my wife is amazing, during the week following the incident she secretly worked with another shooting buddy of mine to locate and purchase a replacement Garand and give it to me for Father's Day. It is a Springfield factory reconditioned at Springfield.

With an intact rifle in hand, using the same ammunition, the failure is pretty easy to replicate. If you pull back and release the bolt from varying positions resulting in less and less velocity, eventually you find a point where (with a round being chambered) there is insufficient velocity to close the bolt. Likely not by coincidence, it stops with the extractor in exactly the position mine appears to have been in and the lugs not yet or barely engaging. This is the only position I got it to stop it. Once it starts rotating, it goes all the way.

I don't have a factory .30-06 on hand to measure case diameter parameters or a gauge to check these rounds, but I'll measure when I can to see if it was the rounds. In the new rifle, all 16 of the remaining rounds drop fully into the chamber with no effort.

When I get a chance I'll take a sized case, fill the primer hole with clay, and see if in this out-of-battery position the firing pin will contact the primer. I think the blown gun is still in sufficient gun to run this test as well.
 

spaniel

New member
"A staggered clip requires the case body diameter to be at factory or minimum diameter. If the diameter is to large, rounds jam between the clip walls. This retards feeding . Not all clip s are the same inside diameter. A small base die should be used for full length sizing, while controling shoulder bump/set back.http://www.midwayusa.com/product/686...06-springfield See "Reviews""

If not all clips are the same size, how would a difference of a thou or two in case head diameter make a different? If it did, as clip specs varied you would have issues even with perfect rounds.
 

spaniel

New member
"I don't know how Garands work, but when it comes to guns I generally avoid forcing anything. "

If you've shot Garands, you would understand my statements. Getting the first round to chamber from a Garand is harder than any other semi I've shot due to the design of the clip. So "forcing" is a relative term. I've always had to force the top round. Just never this hard.

As a Monday morning quarterback it's easy to point to that. At the time, I noticed it, but it did not appear dangerous.
 

brasscollector

New member
I do not have too many issues with the first round chambering in my garand. If I were you I would keep an extra op-rod spring handy. I noticed mine wouldn't consistently strip+chamber the first round shortly after I bought it. I installed a new op-rod spring and the problem subsided. Looking closely at the original spring I could see where a couple of the windings had collapsed. The spring was 'bent' in those spots and would contact the guide tube enough where there was visible wear to the spring. The wear and the contact are going to reduce the effectiveness of the spring. I look at an op-rod spring as a time/usage replacement, cheap enough that I don't think twice about replacing it.
 

Homerboy

Moderator
I'm fairly new to Garands so I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that you seated the clip, and you had to slap the op Rod handle harder than usual to chamber the round, and at some point as it chambered you had to give it another slap? Or just the one slap? My Springfield garand will usually chamber as I release the clip. My HRA always requires a slap. But never more than one.

So it happened on round 5? So the bolt didn't fully close after a round was fired? Could a weak op Rod spring cause that?



Not blaming you for anything. But I will learn from this thread. I love my Garands but I bought them more for the history. I do like to shoot them but they only get shot once or twice a year. And if I have to look at the bolt every time before I fire that's OK. I'm not in a race.
 
Last edited:

spaniel

New member
Issue with weak op rod spring? Possible. Perhaps lack of personal experience across multiple firearms to recognize an issue. But end result appears to be lack of bolt velocity to chamber the round, and ability to fire out of battery.

I've been busy but still plan definitive tests using both the faulty firearm and the replacement for comparison.
 

HiBC

New member
Unfortunately,right at the moment I'm not sure where my copy of the book is.
Precision Shooting mag put out some reloading guides,and among them was "Reloading for High Power."
I read it more than once,and my recall of what was written is pretty clear.
The author advocated for the RCBS precision mic.

He said to measure cartridges that had been fired in your rifle.Then via the Precision mic,you gradually screw down the die till you get the desired shoulder setback.
I remember that different brands or lots of brass may not get the same shoulder setback at the same die setting.
You may have to set your dies slightly different for LC vs WW brass,for example.
IMO,its a mistake to use factory loaded cartridges for your "Template"They are not a gage,you don't know where they tolerance,etc.

What is critical to maintain is the appropriate amount of ammo to chamber clearance so the mechanism can reliably lock.
For our discussion I will call it head clearance.
The author from Precision Shooting advocated for .002 setback,or head clearance for BOLT ACTION RIFLES ONLY.

Now,at this point,I'm a touch fuzzier on my recall,as I did not yet have a Garand,but I'm pretty sure the spec was .004 for AR type rifles and for Garand/M1A it was .006.

The author was adamant about the larger clearance for these rifles.Apparently he understood this kaboom thing pretty well.His point was about "not fully in battery firing"

There will be some varability in your sizing process..002 is enough with a bolt rifle.You close the bolt.

The Garand recoil spring must overcome worst case...tight ammo,a crunch of unburned powder,etc.It has to fall into lockup easily.

OK,I can hear it already.
"What??? .006 thousandths!!!What about my brass life!!!I'll get stretch rings by 4 or 5 reloadings!!

Yes,you will. And if you run at .002 clearance,...you try to figure out why your rifle blew up.Use the paper clip trick,be moderate with pressures,and if the paper clip says trash that lot of brass..thats life.

When they designed those fine battle rifles,they just did not consider how many times you could reload the brass.

So,my main message,.002 is not enough.

OK,so now,you get your new ,fresh factory ammo or virgin brass load.You shoot it in your rifle.You carefully use your RCBS mic tofind your ideal .006 clearance..Great!!

Now,drop the sized brass or loaded round in your Wilson or other case gage.

It should be within the hi/lo limit.Right now,you can take a measurement over the bushing and case head.A good,relable,accurate caliper will do.Write THAT number in your die box lid with a sharpy.

With the bushing gage and your calipers,you have a standard check.

I'm not to sure about some of the details of this story.The multiple bolt drop thing bothers me.Maybe if it had been clipped up for years,who know what verdigris or mud dauber nest was hidden inside the clip.A gungy ammo situation that was not apparent outside the clip could do it.

I do not pretend to have the answer.

Folks recommending .002 clearance is what I had to address.Its wrong,and will wreck more Garands.

OP,....My respects to your Wife.

You would never have known she would replace your M-1 had you not blown the first one up.
 
Last edited:

Slamfire

New member
He said to measure cartridges that had been fired in your rifle.Then via the Precision mic,you gradually screw down the die till you get the desired shoulder setback.

That only works in bolt guns, single actions, it does not work for any gas operated semi automatic mechanism. I don't have any of the antique recoil operated semi auto's, so can't comment on them. Gas guns open up when there is still residual breech pressure, this is called "the residual blowback effect.". This is on purpose and the phenome occurs at pressures less than what it will take to rupture the cartridge case. The desired effect is to assist the mechanism in extracting the cartridge and that always stretches the cartridge case.

Anyone setting up their dies based on the length of a fired cartridge from a gas gun is creating a dangerous situation in Garand mechanisms.
 

1stmar

New member
You guys see any additional risk in using a Redding body, adjusted as you would a full length sizing die, and a lee collet die? My runout is much better this way.
 

Road_Clam

New member
As I gain knowledge and experience with both my M1 and my M1A , i've become cognizant of the potential for the handloader to encompass an out of battery fire. I've developed a hard wired skill to verify a "flush and locked" bolt after chambering with the M1 series. I am just a recreational single shot shooter and I generally load my M1 from a SLED clip. One time I did observe an incomplete bolt lock on a handloaded round. Don't know how it could have happened but it did.
 

Ozzieman

New member
I have been shooting Grands for over 30 years and have never had a problem getting the bolt to close caused by the round getting out of the clip. When yours did, could you see the round still held into the clip but only pushed forward slightly?
Not having the gun here to play with, and not being anything near a gun smith is it possible that the bold was cracked before the previous round and that was making the bolt hard to close then on the last round the bolt came apart?:confused:
Slamfire, I would also like to thank you for teaching me more in one thread than I have picked up in 30 years of owning one.
Thanks.
 

HiBC

New member
Slamfire :
I would not argue with Unclenick over reloading ,or Frank Ettin over legal matters.
From your writeup,it is apparent to me that you have a wealth of experience and knowledge about these rifles.
I do not.I am inclined to humbly defer...mostly.
At the same time,I need to figure out where my Precision Shooting book is a re-read the information.I believe I also have a Zedecker "Loading for Competition" somewhere.I'll check it,too.I'm willing to find out what I have wrong.
Something about your feedback leaves me with questions.Not aguements,questions.
I know it would be best if I did my research and could give crisp specifics.I don't have time right now.I'm communicating a general idea.
The Garand is a long stroke rifle with the port near the muzzle.I read a book spec for a port pressure of <6000 ,IIRC.Bart B later said port pressure would be around 10,000 psi.I don't know,never measured it.

So when the bullet base passes the port,the bullet meplat is just about to emerge.There is a very short dwell time of port pressure.Bullet exits,pressure drops dramatically.

The port size meters and slows the gas.The op rod must be accerlerated.There is a delay built into the op rod cam,free travel before bolt rotation.

I'm saying that if we begin with the pressure at port pressure,then the bullet exit the barrel for a designed dwell time before any rotation occurs,
I question whether shoulders are blown forward with appropriate Garand ammo.
I would think if pressures were high enough to do that,case obturation would make extraction quite difficult.

That's why the delayed blowback Cetme requires chamber fluting.

It may well be that some shooter/reloaders are pursuing long range performance at the expense of the rifles(heavy bullets,slow powder,high port pressure)

Subsequent deformation of the op rod may contribute to out of battery conditions.

I'll say it this way.I load recommended Garand loads with 4895,168's,and I'm happy with approx. 2600 fps.

I have a convenient granite comparator stand with a dial indicator on it.

I drop my brass in a Wilson case length gage,case mouth down.I set the indicator on the case head and zero.

(cases fired in my rifle/my load)

I do not see radical growth of case length in firing.When I size per the procedure recommended in the Precision Shooting Book,

I end up with ammo that checks "Good" in the hi-low limit of a Wilson case gage.

Our discussion on blowing the shoulders forward aside,its not a good plan to use .002 shoulder setback.We need margin of error,and my source recommends .006
 
Last edited:

Slamfire

New member
I question whether shoulders are blown forward with appropriate Garand ammo.

You can read Chinn Vol IV for a description for the timing of gas systems. These are from Chinn's Machine Gun Vol IV.







For the Garand and M14, Springfield Armory called the M14 system a gas expansion, and the Garand a gas impingement. In the Springfield Armory Technical Report, Gas Systems, Caliber 30 T44 Rifle, Report SA-TR11-2610, 2 Aug 1954, time versus operating rod distance charts were created.



http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=552893

The unlocking cycle of the M1 Garand and M14 rifles was tested in 1957 by Springfield Armory. The purpose of the test was to determine the average time (in milliseconds) from firing pin contact to:

a. Bullet passing the gas port
b. Bullet exit
c. Initiation of operating rod recoil
d. End of operating rod dwell
e. Completion of bolt unlocking
f. Position of bullet at initiation of operating rod recoil
g. Position of bullet at end of operating rod dwell
h. Position of bullet at completion of bolt unlocking

Three single rounds were fired from each of three M1 and three M14 (T44E4) rifles. The ammunition used was M2 AP for the M1 rifles and armor piercing (T93E1 or T93E2) cartridges for the M14 rifles. Each rifle was fully loaded for each series of three shots. High speed motion picture cameras (operating at 6,000 to 7,000 frames per second; about 1 frame every .015 millisecond) and flash strobes were used to record hammer fall, bullet exit, operating rod movement and bolt unlocking during each firing sequence. Lumiline screens were used to record average bullet velocity at a distance of 53 feet forward of the muzzle. The film was analyzed to obtain the data below. Average values were computed from the high speed film as follows:

Data Item ........................................................M1 Rifle ..............................M14 Rifle
Type of gas system ...........................................gas impingement ...................gas cut-off and expansion
Location of gas port from muzzle .........................1.5 “ ...................................8.0 “
Gas port diameter .............................................0.0793 “ ..............................0.0768 “
Barrel length ....................................................24 “ ....................................22 “
End of hammer fall ............................................0 milliseconds ........................0 milliseconds
Bullet passes gas port .......................................1.31 milliseconds ...................1.01 milliseconds
Bullet clears muzzle ...........................................1.36 milliseconds ...................1.25 milliseconds
Initiation of operating rod recoil ...........................1.58 milliseconds ...................1.53 milliseconds
End of operating rod dwell ...................................2.89 milliseconds ..................3.57 milliseconds
Completion of bolt unlocking ................................4.07 milliseconds ..................5.00 milliseconds
Amount of bullet travel at start of op rod recoil .......7.2 “ past the muzzle .............9.2 “ past the muzzle
Position of bullet at end of op rod dwell .................50.2 “ past the muzzle ..........76.1 “ past the muzzle
Position of bullet at completion of bolt unlocking ......88.9 “ past the muzzle .........123.0 “ past the muzzle
Average bullet velocity ........................................2735 feet per second ...........2733 feet per second

Reference: Springfield Armory Technical Note SA-TN11-1094 dated 16 Dec 1957

The relevant chart showing the dwell of the system



Anyway in my Garands and M1a's, and AR15's, I have examined fired cases and all of them show that the shoulder has been moved forward on extraction. This includes dry cases fired in dry chambers and my lubricated cases, they all show shoulder shape changes that make them longer, base to shoulder, than the unfired case. I have checked these things on Wilson gauges and the length increase I attribute to pressure at unlock.

I don't know why you are not seeing it, the world is a confounding place to live in. :eek:


Slamfire, I would also like to thank you for teaching me more in one thread than I have picked up in 30 years of owning one.
Thanks.

Glad to be of help.
 
Last edited:

stagpanther

New member
...AR15's, I have examined fired cases and all of them show that the shoulder has been moved forward on extraction. This includes dry cases fired in dry chambers and my lubricated cases, they all show shoulder shape changes that make them longer, base to shoulder, than the unfired case
That's been my experience with all the semi-auto rifles I've fired too. I'm a little less certain about whether it's possible to stretch as much from dry-firing vs. case elongation upon fire-forming to chamber.
 

Ozzieman

New member
Hope you don't mind that I played with your photos.
But could this failure be caused by a cracked bolt.
The first photo shows something missing on the bolt head between the extractor and the ejector. The second photo shows the strangest shape of a case I have ever seen. 3rd shows the missing portion of the bolt
 
Last edited:
Top