Forster co-ax press question

[tangolima]

Thank you Unclenick.

I didn't know whether the press cams over per se. But based on what I saw on the video, it does seem go rather near the top dead center. That is where my concern is as the mechanical advantage is huge, infinite theoretically. It can break thing before you know it.

Forming a straight wall case is much lighter duty than a full size bottle neck case. When I form 30-06 into 8mm Mauser, I lean on the handle of my t-mag. It cams over. The force exerted on the die is easily several thousand pounds. I know some seasoned reloaders consider using sizing die for forming a "bad habit". Although I don't totally agree with the thought, I can see the point. It is taxing on the equipment.

I see what the co-ax is best at. I should use it judicially, if I decide to buy it. I will put all things into consideration.

Thanks again for your calm and shrewd advice. It has been a pleasure as always.

-TL

 

[Unclenick]

You are welcome.

Yes, the low contact area pistol sizing ring is no comparison to rifle brass forming. Especially not pushing a shoulder back over a tenth of an inch. I still think the press is plenty strong for the task, and I am being, perhaps, overprotective of mine.

I notice, BTW, that Prvi Partisan has 8 mm Mauser brass for about $0.60 at Midway. I've heard their recent rifle brass production is pretty satisfactory, but haven't had a chance to try any.

 

[supercub99]

On a more serious note....or not...lol. Some of us have been in the troubleshooting/repair business all our lives and we are the ones that "fix" and make right what engineers were paid thousands to do right the first time. I won't diss on em but I can tell you that as long as things are breaking, someone's not designing, making, or engineering them right. In defense of the engineer, often times they do design it right but the guy selling it doesn't always follow through with the design presented...ie, they cheapen it down to a price point.

Anyway, it's a good discussion and lots of new info on the jaw holders. In regards to forming brass, I'm like Unclenick, I did run a .308 into a 6.5 Creedmoor die and was rather successful with not much resistance at all. Another time, I bought a new die, a Redding I think and apparently you need to run the de-capping pin out a lot more than what most, ie, 1/8". What happens if you don't run it out a 1/2 inch, is it snags on the expander ball and shoves the neck back into the case. Odd looking duck but again, no effort. I think you could easily form brass. On the other hand, I have a rock chucker sitting on the floor that again like Unclenick I would probably use that. Everything else he says about the Co-ax and how he uses it mirrors my use.

Reading these posts, one tends to go to the web sites and I have often thought a shorter handle would be handy. They are listed in both Forster and several after market outfits like Inline Fabrication. I thought maybe a trip to the hardware store and maybe find something I could adapt. I found these;
http://www.doublehh.com/index.php/pins/hitchpin/
They cost $3-6 bucks and can be cut off to desired length and you have a very nice handle. It is tough stock and took about five min. to cut it with a Milwaukee mini sawzall. I cut mine to 6.5 in. overall. I had to buff the end that goes in the yoke a hair as the paint makes it too thick to slip in. They look cool, work great and cost little......and are the right color to boot.

 

[jmorris]

Some of us have been in the troubleshooting/repair business all our lives and we are the ones that "fix" and make right what engineers were paid thousands to do right the first time.

You can't always blame that on an engineer. Many good designs are turned into bad ones just because "bean counters" tried to make the finished product cheaper and changed the original specifications.

That said there are good and bad engineers too. Some if asked by a black smith to design an anvil, would create a contraption with 52 moving parts that require some external power source, etc. Then there are some that would just recreate what has been working for hundreds of years.

 

[tangolima]

I notice, BTW, that Prvi Partisan has 8 mm Mauser brass for about $0.60 at Midway. I've heard their recent rifle brass production is pretty satisfactory, but haven't had a chance to try any.

PPU brass is good, though probably not quite as good as the other more expensive brands. They were in short supply for a short time, now no longer a problem.

I do several conversions; 30-06 to 8mm Mauser, 30-06 to 7.7mm Jap, 6.5mm carcano to 7.62x45 Czech, and a few more in the future. Some are out of necessity, but mostly are because it can be done. I have a big pile of hxp 30-06 brass sitting idle. I am hesitant to pay for a brass if I can make it out of 30-06.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

 

[tangolima]

Anyway, it's a good discussion and lots of new info on the jaw holders. In regards to forming brass, I'm like Unclenick, I did run a .308 into a 6.5 Creedmoor die and was rather successful with not much resistance at all. Another time, I bought a new die, a Redding I think and apparently you need to run the de-capping pin out a lot more than what most, ie, 1/8". What happens if you don't run it out a 1/2 inch, is it snags on the expander ball and shoves the neck back into the case. Odd looking duck but again, no effort. I think you could easily form brass. On the other hand, I have a rock chucker sitting on the floor that again like Unclenick I would probably use that. Everything else he says about the Co-ax and how he uses it mirrors my use.

That's a very good data point, thank you. A 308 into a 6.5mm creedmoor is serious. Sounds like the press can do that sort of forming without much problem.

In the second instance, you were jamming the brass between the die neck and the expander ball. It happened to me a few times.

Talking about engineering profession (not a label), engineers make mistakes. They do most of the time because they assume incorrectly. They trust but are too lazy to verify.

Well, that's what I heard. I only drive the train

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

 

[supercub99]

I take a certain comfort in having a driver when on the train, mainly the airport shuttles and metro's I've been on a few times. The ones with the empty seats at both ends? those can't get there soon enough for me. Now with you at the helm, I'm not so sure we'd get there in my lifetime...LOL..just kidding...ha ha.....

 

[jmorris]

They trust but are too lazy to verify.

That is why I was suggesting putting one to use on the last page, no better way to see how a shoe fits than to try it on.

If you have one of these near you, you can try it out for 90 days and if you are not "completely satisfied" return it and get your money back.

http://www.cabelas.com/custserv/custserv.jsp?pageName=ReturnsPolicy

 

[RC20]

On the note of engineers.

Ultimately in the end its the field success of failure that determines how good it was and often there are factors that the engineer has not a clue on. Not because they are stupid (though some are truly awful as in any profession) but they can't design to what they don't know is there.

I don't engineer, I repair. I asses. I come up with fixes (if possible)

I have come across fairly few pieces of total junk.

But, just as I could not do the design, no engineer can critique or properly assess a piece of equipment unless they designed it, saw it into the field and got the feedback.

If you think you can you are simply fooling yourself. Experience trumps opinions every time.

If the engineer gets it close enough we can adjust it or make it work they have done well.

If you want to read a story of reality, read the story on Boeing battery debacle. That includes the burning down of a building by an engineer.

While not the only lesson, having a company that provides Security system for Business aircraft are not who you want to design a battery charger.

 

[Unclenick]

There's a book from about 35 years ago that you might like called, To Engineer is Human, The Role of Failure in Successful Design. It's about numerous engineering failures, like the Tacoma Narrows bridge that taught us important things.

The main difference between and engineer and a basement crank inventor is just having the science and math and training to whittle down what can sometimes be a nearly infinite number of cut-and-try possibilities, and sometimes to prove an idea will never work and therefore to avoid spending time on it at all. It's a mixed blessing. The right training means you probably won't get a basic mistake on something that's been done thousands of times. But the training can also narrow your way of looking at things, so that every once in awhile a person without that training, not stuck inside "the box" will come up with something it would never occur to you to try.

 

[supercub99]

Regarding engineers, as my sister in law likes to say, some and some.

Back to handles. I remember when Hornady came out with the Lock n Load progressive press. Shortly there after, one of the early aftermarket things was the handle. There were short, long, bent and bent again....none like the original. I wonder if Hornady would have bent and shortened the original if the after market folks would have offered up a straight one?

But I regress. And will offer up a mod of my own for the Forster Co-ax. The long straight handle that comes on it is indeed a little awkward depending on the height of the bench. There are several aftermarket ones out but a little spendy for a pipe. I found this handle at a hardware store and cut it down a few inches. I may play around and take it down a little more as it cost a whole $4.50. It's a hitch pin for a trailer so easy to find just about anywhere. It's tough and takes a little doing to whack it off and then you need to clean the paint off so it slips in the press yoke. It is solid steel and it actually counter balances the press rather nicely as the tend to snap up a little fast. You can angle it sideways if you work to one side or the other.
Enjoy.

 

[jmorris]

The main difference between and engineer and a basement crank inventor is just having the science and math and training to whittle down what can sometimes be a nearly infinite number of cut-and-try possibilities,

It can also lead to overly complex designs that rely on modern technology's that don't play out well in the end.

Kind of like an already 94 year old 1923 Ford model T has a much better chance of still being able to start and drive in another 50 years than any brand new auto you can buy today. It's also not one of the vehicles involved in the 42 million recall involving Takata airbags either...

Engineers are people too and have different opinions on what is best, just like everyone else.

 

[Whisper 300]

Thank you supercub--first off, Unclenick turns me on to a new part from Forster and then you show me that a Linchpin works and I have an assortment of them given the number of large tractors and implements in the shed.
Kind of sorry I bought the short handle years ago as the D-handle is pretty spiffy.
Never too old to learn a new trick.
Thanks guys.

Gary

 

[AVirginian]

I cut down an old golf club shaft and use it occasionally. I did have to add a 3/4" copper coupler to make it fit.

 

[supercub99]

"I cut down an old golf club shaft and use it occasionally. I did have to add a 3/4" copper coupler to make it fit. "

Nice, my only concern would be that if I used my worthless driver handle I would have shells that looked like bananas!

 

[RC20]

But I regress. And will offer up a mod of my own for the Forster Co-ax. The long straight handle that comes on it is indeed a little awkward depending on the height of the bench. There are several aftermarket ones out but a little spendy for a pipe. I found this handle at a hardware store and cut it down a few inches. I may play around and take it down a little more as it cost a whole $4.50. It's a hitch pin for a trailer so easy to find just about anywhere. It's tough and takes a little doing to whack it off and then you need to clean the paint off so it slips in the press yoke. It is solid steel and it actually counter balances the press rather nicely as the tend to snap up a little fast. You can angle it sideways if you work to one side or the other.
Enjoy.

Good lord man, you modified it, I hope you had it engineered.

For a small fee.......

 

[wiiawiwb]

Supercub99...great mod to the Co-Ax. Very clever.

 

[bbqncigars]

I really appreciate the engineering that went into my almost fifty year old CoAx. I've ruined many a case due to operator error (a 30-06 case does NOT play well with a .32acp size die), but the machine has never failed. I don't see the need for a short lever, as I sit to the right of the press and just flip the yoke choked down in my right hand. A simple rotation of the wrist full length sizes 45-70 cases.
As to the strength/accuracy debate, I've seen no mention of how the CoAx pulls the shell holder into the die versus every other press pushing it. Which of the two is inherently more stable, hmm? JMHO.