Flippy Sigs?

[B. Lahey]

I picked up a P6/P225 the other day and like it a lot. It feels pretty good in my hand despite the rough plastic grips, has been totally reliable so far, and delivers groups that are fairly impressive.

But the "muzzle flip" is terrible. What causes this? The bore axis looks to be a whole lot higher than any other pistol I own. Is that it, or is there something else going on?

Compared to the two other 9mm handguns I was shooting yesterday (a Hi-Power and a 9mm Tokarev), the Sig flips and jumps like a frightened squirrel. I've never had a problem quickly placing second and third shots with a 9mm pistol before, but this P6 is noticably harder to keep pointed in the right direction during rapid fire.

Are all Sigs this flippy?

Maybe the P6 is worse because it doesn't have the extra ballast of a double-stack mag in the grip?

 

[ChicagoTex]

while the 225/P6 is among the worst offenders, even SIG advocates (myself included) are forced to admit that due to a high muzzle position relative to the hand they do tend to exhibit higher amounts of "muzzle flip" - I personally feel this is a small price to pay for easily accessible controls, wonderful ergonomics (at least in the case of the 220, 226, and 239 for me), and a softer shooting experience but you may not agree. Also note that despite the apparent muzzle flip these guns can get back on target very quickly... you just have to "trust the flip" - I have to do the same with the Glock 26, for the record (another gun I'm quite fond of).

 

[xrocket]

That is a funny!

A lot to one is nothing to another.

 

[B. Lahey]

Sure, it's "nothing" compared to a .454 or aluminum-frame .357, but it for dang sure flips worse than any other 9mm I have fired.

What 9mm have you shot that flips more than a Sig?

 

[Tom2]

Are you talking light alloy frame guns versus steel frames, which are often heavier guns? that might be a factor.

 

[AK103K]

I keep seeing posted that SIG's have a high bore axis (something else that I didnt know was an issue about shooting until I got the internet ), but when I compare them to most of the other pistols I have, they all seem to be about the same. If any were lower, I'd have to say it was my old Glocks.

I own SIG's in most all the pistol calibers, and have never found them to be more "flippy" than any of the others I shoot.(I own a couple of HP's to know that comparison) Maybe its because I shoot SIG's of simialr size in hotter calibers that the 9mm doesnt seem any different.

What 9mm have you shot that flips more than a Sig?

A full auto MAC with the stock closed. Flying critters and aircraft aint safe!

 

[B. Lahey]

I bet you are right about the weight, Tom2. On top of that the weight is distributed in a very top-heavy way in the P6. That probably has as much to do with it as bore axis.

A full auto MAC with the stock closed. Flying critters and aircraft aint safe!

Indeed.

 

[dwatts47]

That probably has as much to do with it as bore axis

Sorry but the Bore-Axis height arguement is 98% crap (excuses for poor recoil control) and 2% truth.

I (and many many others) have shots sigs of all calibers in IDPA, trained with them and carried them to defend our lives without once worrying about the Bore Axis height of 1.5mm above a 1911's bore ever botherinig us.

 

[dave421]

Never had a problem with a Sig feeling snappy outside of a .40 SigPro and that's pretty snappy regardless of what it's shot out of. I haven't ever shot a 225/P6 so perhaps it's different but I couldn't see it being anything major.

 

[B. Lahey]

Sorry but the Bore-Axis height arguement is 98% crap (excuses for poor recoil control) and 2% truth.

Dang, I guess my "recoil control" is excellent with all my other 9mm handguns, but becomes "poor" with the P6.

I bet it's all psychological. I know the Sig is wunderbarpistolenrauchenblasten, so I am in awe of its amazing powers, and unable to handle it.

As for the bore only being 1.5mm higher than a 1911...

1911s flip too. Good thing I watched Lurper's videos. I'll have to apply the style to the P6.

 

[AK103K]

I bet it's all psychological.

I think your on to something now.

1911s flip too. Good thing I watched Lurper's videos. I'll have to apply the style to the P6.

I wouldnt think you'd have to change anything, if your shooting properly. My grip doesnt change from gun to gun(pistols), regardless of caliber.

 

[2cooltoolz]

Sorry. I don’t have the expertise or the equipment to measure the bore axis or quantify muzzle flip on the Sig Sauer pistol. So I can just give my impressions.
First off, I think Sig makes one of the highest quality and reliable pistols in the world. I have shot thousands of rounds through mine and to the best of my memory they have been 100%. They are the most accurate firearm I have ever had the pleasure to shoot, though compared to a lot of you guys, my experience is limited.
But, in my humble opinion, they do have significant muzzle flip.
I define muzzle flip as the upward rotation of the pistol at the axis formed by the web of your thumb. I’m not talking about “snap” or, my term, “hand spank”, or rearward push, or even the general lift that carries your forearms up. Or the lateral torque that some guns have gobs of (My old AMT Backup45).
In shooting my P220, at about 38 oz., with a 4.4” barrel vs. my S&W CS45 semi, at about 25 oz., with a 3.25” barrel, I notice significantly more muzzle flip with the Sig.
The same with my P226 9mm at about 35 oz. with a 4.4” barrel vs. my MK9 at about 23 oz. with a 3” barrel.
The small guns definitely have recoil and a bit of “hand spank” (not bad, though) and are not nearly as accurate as the Sigs at 10 yards and beyond. But I find myself able to shoot faster double taps and rapid fire with the S&W and the Kahr, within 10 yards. Not measured, just my perception.
These are my four most commonly used guns when I go to the range. I usually take all four and fire them one after the other. I have a lot more rounds through the Sigs than the smaller guns, but I generally find the Chief and the Kahr to be more fun.
This being said, if I have to grab one handgun and head for the hills, I’m grabbing a Sig.

 

[IdahoG36]

I have never shot a P6/225, but I noticed a lot of flip shooting a 229.

 

[ChicagoTex]

Very good points, 2cool - though like I said before... I think if you could learn to trust your SIG to return to target before your eyes can confirm it you'd find two or more very close holes to one another... but I know that kind of faith is hard.

 

[xrocket]

My gosh, I better get rid of all my defective flipping Sigs ASAP.

I didn't realize they were such flipping freaks. I don't know how I ever got so flipping far in life without all the flipping knowledge found on the flipping Internet. No more flippers for me! I've just got to get control of this flipping situation.

I'm really starting to flip out about all these flipping Sigs flipping!




Just flipping funning guys.

 

[2cooltoolz]

You just didn't have a flippin' name for it...

 

[.351winchester]

Also note that despite the apparent muzzle flip these guns can get back on target very quickly... you just have to "trust the flip"

Please elaborate. I tried somethining like that with my G23 double tapping. Single shots though had me taking all kinds of time to pick the sights back up. It was really impossible for me to shoot fast and accurate with this gun, and I couldn't understand how anyone could, much less the also very popular mini Glocks.

I cannot tolerate excessive muzzle flip. That charecteristic has a very negative impact on my shooting. Sigs are no question the best TDA pistol money can buy. TDA's nessesarily have high bore axis and top/rear-heavyness. Sigs are better in this regard than the Ruger P-89, but that's about it.
It can be worked around if you don't make a big deal of it. It matters to me as much as trigger quality.
Don't forget all the points where Sig buries all competitors (SA pull, accuracy, reliability, etc.)

 

[xrocket]

2CT ...You mean "flipping Sigs?"

I really don't want to flipping catch this flipping disease that causes flipping Sigs to flip. It seems to be flipping contagious lately. Is there a flipping antidote for the flipping Sigs flipping or am I flipping doomed now?

I just need to know the flipping truth about all these flipping Sigs flipping out all over the flipping Internet.

Can anybody flipping help me with my newly acquired flipping Sigs disease I seem to be flipping out about lately?

Flipping anybody?

 

[B. Lahey]

I wouldnt think you'd have to change anything, if your shooting properly. My grip doesnt change from gun to gun(pistols), regardless of caliber.

You must not shoot bullseye.

I shoot my Hi-Power better with a sort of "crush grip" (that used to be the trendy name, anyway). It just does not move much during recoil so with this style, it stays pointed at the target through the whole recoil process as long as I maintain a nice tight grip. It works for me.

With 1911s I tend to go with a neutral grip and let it settle back as it pleases. This is the Lurper style I spoke of before, but there are plenty of others that teach it. The crush grip just doesn't work for me with 1911s, letting it recoil and settle with a neutral grip does. This is what I was talking about trying with the Sig.

 

[AK103K]

Nope, not a bullseye shooter.

I often think people tend to over analyze things and worry themselves to death about "technique". I find if I keep things simple, and just relax and shoot, everything works out. But thats just me. If your the analytical type, have at it.