First rifle: AK or AR?
- Thread starter Lee6113
- Start date
I don't like the looks of the VZ 58, because the action looks like it could easily chop one's finger off, if held the wrong way.
VZ 58 magazines don't fit in AK magwells...so availability might become a problem, if you need a vice versa in the coming years of possible turmoil.
If you feel that your state legislature is going to ban certain semi automatic rifles {as my home state of Maryland did}, including high capacity magazines, in the near future...buy at least one decent AK first --- with plenty of 30 round magazines. Then go buy a quality AR, with plenty of 20 or 30 round magazines --- But definitely buy both the AR and AK vintage.
If your AR breaks down...you'll have a back up {besides a pistol}, or vise versa.
VZ 58 magazines don't fit in AK magwells...so availability might become a problem, if you need a vice versa in the coming years of possible turmoil.
If you feel that your state legislature is going to ban certain semi automatic rifles {as my home state of Maryland did}, including high capacity magazines, in the near future...buy at least one decent AK first --- with plenty of 30 round magazines. Then go buy a quality AR, with plenty of 20 or 30 round magazines --- But definitely buy both the AR and AK vintage.
If your AR breaks down...you'll have a back up {besides a pistol}, or vise versa.
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leadcounsel
Moderator
Another Ford vs. Chevy conversation that has literally been beaten to death ...
And we have no idea why or what the intended use for the rifle is.
Why don't folks just read the zillions of posts on this topic.
Both are still really cheap ~$500-600 for a good entry model.
Ammo for the AK and AR is roughly .30 cents/round.
Mags for both are currently cheap and available. The AK is a bit more tricky to find the right parts for depending on the origin.
I'd say the AK47 round and platform is better for home defense due to the simplicity, reliability and ballistics. AR owners will chime in and disagree, but there you have it.
If you want to hang a bunch of stuff on your gun and trick it out, the AR is better. For long range shooting the nod goes to the AR with the more precision design and better iron optics.
At the end of the day, it's the Indian and not the arrow. Stock up on training, ammo, and mags.
And we have no idea why or what the intended use for the rifle is.
Why don't folks just read the zillions of posts on this topic.
Both are still really cheap ~$500-600 for a good entry model.
Ammo for the AK and AR is roughly .30 cents/round.
Mags for both are currently cheap and available. The AK is a bit more tricky to find the right parts for depending on the origin.
I'd say the AK47 round and platform is better for home defense due to the simplicity, reliability and ballistics. AR owners will chime in and disagree, but there you have it.
If you want to hang a bunch of stuff on your gun and trick it out, the AR is better. For long range shooting the nod goes to the AR with the more precision design and better iron optics.
At the end of the day, it's the Indian and not the arrow. Stock up on training, ammo, and mags.
lee n. field
New member
What's it for?
While it is entirely true that residual gas does enter the action of all semi autos when the fired case is extracted, I note that you left out the fact that the direct impingement system of the AR injects MORE gas into the receiver than a piston gas system.
You might say AR's need to be easier to clean as they get dirtier when they run. This isn't the deal breaker it might seem, but ask any GI who has scrubbed the baked on carbon off the BACK of his AR bolt if it isn't a royal pain..
For a first rifle, I would NOT recommend either one.
Get a .22LR, and learn how to shoot, first. THEN move up to something bigger.
I've never thought the AR15 was too hard to maintain. The back of the bolt can be a pain.
I'm not sure if the OP plans to purchase close together or years apart. If he plans to only have one rifle for a long time, I'd say AR.
As far as potential ammo bans go... That would be quickly remedied with a barrel swap if one owned an AR.
I'm not sure if the OP plans to purchase close together or years apart. If he plans to only have one rifle for a long time, I'd say AR.
As far as potential ammo bans go... That would be quickly remedied with a barrel swap if one owned an AR.
I've never been in love with the 7.62x39 or the 5.56 as an anti-personnel round. The 7.62 has a lousy trajectory and the 5.56 has lousy terminal ballistics.
But in terms of the guns, there are some pretty decent AR15s out there in terms of accuracy, ergonomics, reliability, and general build quality. I've never met an AK variant that had much going for it along those lines.
But in terms of the guns, there are some pretty decent AR15s out there in terms of accuracy, ergonomics, reliability, and general build quality. I've never met an AK variant that had much going for it along those lines.
It's NOT Ford vs Chevy to someone who understands how they work. That line of reasoning only glosses over what's happening under the hood - or reveals a lack of knowledge about what they do.
How the bolt carrier is moved by the action of gas in a cylinder is less important then the controls. If, as was said, it's the operator, again, I point out that the AK isn't present in the top ranks of 3Gun shooting. The controls are all wrong and impede the shooter.
A car that has to be hand cranked to start isn't going to be as fast off the line when you are lined up across the road from where they are parked. That's called Le Mans start - the drivers spring across the road, crank up and move off.
The AK hand crankers are going to be consistently left behind, and are, which is exactly reason for the results we see in OPEN completion. Shooters aren't stupid, they pick the gun which helps them win, and the AK doesn't. It's slow and cranky.
By the way, did I mention the safety yet? You can't thumb it off with your finger on the trigger very easily. Another fail.
Can the AK be improved? Yes, and they are on the market. Like, left hand charging, and safeties accessible to the thumb of the firing hand, and robust rail bolt covers that don't shift around. All of which come standard on the AR. In point of fact, copied precisely because the AR has proven to be better in the control layout than most combat rifles. So much so most combat rifles currently available copy the control locations.
How about mounting a free float over the barrel?
Or replacing said barrel with something in an alternate caliber? Can't be done without a press and the ability to set headspace while doing it. The AR simply drops into the upper, the barrel nut tightened to hold it and let the gas tube pass. AK = expensive barrel press setup, AR, a vice on your workshop table.
The AK is a primitive copy of the German assault rifle meant for low tech industrial capacity - if you shoot it out, you just get another. The AR was designed from the ground up as a high tech rifle using modern mass production methods and repairable. It's modular reasoning is why we have so many variants - it's certainly done better than HK's attempt at making roller locking a interchangeable standard.
M16's are surfacing in the hands of Vietnamese mountain villagers that were handed out to them in the first missions contacted by Special Forces - still working after 45 years. Pretty rough for the wear, but operating full auto weapons. I haven't seen AKs from that era - it's certainly not impossible. Please link to any as a counterpoint.
And as an aside, no, you DON'T have to clean the tail of the bolt. It contacts nothing and does nothing to change the operation of the weapon. Any more than you have to scrape the carbon off the pistons of your daily driver. If it builds up, it disintegrates and flies out the exhaust ports on the side of the BCG.
Ex. Filthy 14, which was cleaned twice in 60,000 rounds last I checked. No stoppages due to carbon on the tail of the bolt. Just because the armorer doesn't want to do it for clean room inspection standards doesn't mean it's required for you. Weapons cleaning in the military is an item to fill a unused part of a training schedule. It give supervisors a break time to go do paperwork.
How the bolt carrier is moved by the action of gas in a cylinder is less important then the controls. If, as was said, it's the operator, again, I point out that the AK isn't present in the top ranks of 3Gun shooting. The controls are all wrong and impede the shooter.
A car that has to be hand cranked to start isn't going to be as fast off the line when you are lined up across the road from where they are parked. That's called Le Mans start - the drivers spring across the road, crank up and move off.
The AK hand crankers are going to be consistently left behind, and are, which is exactly reason for the results we see in OPEN completion. Shooters aren't stupid, they pick the gun which helps them win, and the AK doesn't. It's slow and cranky.
By the way, did I mention the safety yet? You can't thumb it off with your finger on the trigger very easily. Another fail.
Can the AK be improved? Yes, and they are on the market. Like, left hand charging, and safeties accessible to the thumb of the firing hand, and robust rail bolt covers that don't shift around. All of which come standard on the AR. In point of fact, copied precisely because the AR has proven to be better in the control layout than most combat rifles. So much so most combat rifles currently available copy the control locations.
How about mounting a free float over the barrel?
Or replacing said barrel with something in an alternate caliber? Can't be done without a press and the ability to set headspace while doing it. The AR simply drops into the upper, the barrel nut tightened to hold it and let the gas tube pass. AK = expensive barrel press setup, AR, a vice on your workshop table.
The AK is a primitive copy of the German assault rifle meant for low tech industrial capacity - if you shoot it out, you just get another. The AR was designed from the ground up as a high tech rifle using modern mass production methods and repairable. It's modular reasoning is why we have so many variants - it's certainly done better than HK's attempt at making roller locking a interchangeable standard.
M16's are surfacing in the hands of Vietnamese mountain villagers that were handed out to them in the first missions contacted by Special Forces - still working after 45 years. Pretty rough for the wear, but operating full auto weapons. I haven't seen AKs from that era - it's certainly not impossible. Please link to any as a counterpoint.
And as an aside, no, you DON'T have to clean the tail of the bolt. It contacts nothing and does nothing to change the operation of the weapon. Any more than you have to scrape the carbon off the pistons of your daily driver. If it builds up, it disintegrates and flies out the exhaust ports on the side of the BCG.
Ex. Filthy 14, which was cleaned twice in 60,000 rounds last I checked. No stoppages due to carbon on the tail of the bolt. Just because the armorer doesn't want to do it for clean room inspection standards doesn't mean it's required for you. Weapons cleaning in the military is an item to fill a unused part of a training schedule. It give supervisors a break time to go do paperwork.
Skarekrow88
New member
I've only owned AKs. Do I want to own an AR eventually? Sure, a 20" barrel A2 style just the way it was designed to be.
The reason I went with an AK first despite all of its shortcomings: Reliability. If things go sideways I wont have to sweat the fact I haven't cleaned or lubed my AK in 3 weeks of consistent use.
I 100% trust a nice clean and shiny AR to function properly, but what about when its not so nice and shiny and you dont have a chance to take care of it? Give me a bone-dry or coated-in-mud AK over an AR in the same condition any day for a firefight or a hog hunt.
The reason I went with an AK first despite all of its shortcomings: Reliability. If things go sideways I wont have to sweat the fact I haven't cleaned or lubed my AK in 3 weeks of consistent use.
I 100% trust a nice clean and shiny AR to function properly, but what about when its not so nice and shiny and you dont have a chance to take care of it? Give me a bone-dry or coated-in-mud AK over an AR in the same condition any day for a firefight or a hog hunt.
44 AMP said:
+1. No matter which of these you'd get, you'd end up, in all likelihood, just sending lead downrange without ever learning to shoot.
44 AMP said:
Another +1, though I'd also suggest it be a decent bolt action .22.
If you just have to have an AR or AK, I'd recommend a good AR and good ammo. Start pricing both gun & ammo out, and you'll see you'll get much more trigger time with a good .22.
IMO, AKs are great for sending lots of lead downrange, but a lousy platform from which to learn how to shoot. Most garden-variety rack-grade ARs (and the ammo most feed them) aren't much better, IME.
Well, I can't imagine too many scenarios where a civilian would need to fire their weapon endlessly until it gunks up.
If you're defending your home and you have burned through 30rds of ammo and are switching multiple mags.... You have lots of problems.
If you've fired enough ammo to gunk up your AR15 beyond use, you are fortunate to have lasted that long; possible you could be the worst shot on the planet as well.
Very unlikely that the home defender would need to retrieve the rifle from the mud to defend your property.
If you're defending your home and you have burned through 30rds of ammo and are switching multiple mags.... You have lots of problems.
If you've fired enough ammo to gunk up your AR15 beyond use, you are fortunate to have lasted that long; possible you could be the worst shot on the planet as well.
Very unlikely that the home defender would need to retrieve the rifle from the mud to defend your property.
leadcounsel
Moderator
A failure can happen on the first round or the 10,000th round. In my experience, the AR platform is more prone to feed failures and much more sensitive to regular cleaning.
Heck, on clean and oiled ARs I've seen then fail to strip the first round off a magazine.
Say you shoot a few thousand rounds through it and don't have time to clean it and then need to call it into self-defense duty... a founded star chamber and bolt are much more prone to reliability issues. AKs can literally go for years of shooting in the harshest conditions with minimal cleaning...
Well heck, let's ditch the ar vs ak and go mini14.
I know that they don't need to be cleaned. They are accurate enough. My mini14 is on it's 3rd year without the action being cleaned. Just a bore snake now and then.
Sometimes crap happens. If I grab a pistol and it fails, that's just how it goes. Same for a rifle. If I run out of bullets, I'm going to have to accept it.
A person can't spend his life worrying about his rifle that most likely will never be used in a defensive scenario.
But if you need one, you need one.
So if the possibility of jamming is a concern, get a mini14 or get a revolver.
I know that they don't need to be cleaned. They are accurate enough. My mini14 is on it's 3rd year without the action being cleaned. Just a bore snake now and then.
Sometimes crap happens. If I grab a pistol and it fails, that's just how it goes. Same for a rifle. If I run out of bullets, I'm going to have to accept it.
A person can't spend his life worrying about his rifle that most likely will never be used in a defensive scenario.
But if you need one, you need one.
So if the possibility of jamming is a concern, get a mini14 or get a revolver.