First Reloading Experience A Failure - Looking for Guidance to Find out Why

[markr6754]

Dear Forum...I've moved this post to a new Thread under the advice from kmw1954. I've had two super responses already, (USSR and kmw1954) so I have some things to check out with my weapon.

I've started out with a brand new Hornady Lock-n-Load Classic kit, bolted to a Black&Decker Workmate 550. I'm using old brass that I dry tumbled through media, then wet tumbled using a Franklin Arsenal Rotary Tumbler.

Lee 4-die 9mm set
Berry 115gn 9mm Copper Plated round nose
Hodgdon HP-38 powder
Thoroughly Cleaned and Polished Fiocchi Italian brass (G.F.L. stamp)
Berretta 92FS 9mm (only 9mm I have)
Tested with original barrel, recoil spring and guide AND with brand new barrel, new recoil spring and guide.

3 sets of Loads:

Set 1: 4.2 gn HP-38, COL 1.125", CCI 550 magnum primer (bought the magnum primers by mistake, which is why I loaded light for this set)

Set 2: 4.4 gn HP-38, COL 1.125", WIN WPL standard primer

Set 3: 4.6 gn HP-38, COL 1.1", WIN WPL standard primer

Used a combination of Hodgdon Reloading Center Data and Hornady Cartrodge Loading Handbook for powder and COL ideas. WIN321 data used where HP-38 was not listed.

Shooting Experience:
Set 1: 100% failure to eject/load next round
Set 2: 100% failure to eject/load next round
Set 3: (which were first rounds fired) 70% failure to eject/load next round

Test comparison:
15 rounds Fiocchi American new 115 gn FMJ RN
93.3% successful recycle, eject, new round loaded - no stovepipe, one round caught on feedramp.

In general, Set 1, Set 2, and Test comparison rounds fired true, pretty close to where I pointed (I am not a crack shot).

Set 3 - highest charge with deepest bullet seating, rounds fired tight group, but all pulled left of center.

All reloads drop neatly into a 92FS barrel, the only direct fitment check I ran. I have ordered a Lyman handgun cartridge ammo checker block.

Any ideas why my reloaded rounds failed to recycle?

All ideas are welcome.

 

[MarkGlazer]

Good evening and welcome to the reloading world. As you are just beginning this journey I would like to suggest that you stick with published loading data until you get to the point where your rounds are functioning as intended. Mixing data, substituting powder, etc. in the beginning doesn't help you understand the basic process, which is essentially problem definition and resolution.

In your case the failure to eject appears to be very simple, you've "under-weighted" your powder load. If you go back to the Hodgdon site and walk back through the 9mm option with HP-38 powder and a 115 grain bullet, you'll receive a jacketed and lead round offering. The jacketed round has a minimum load of 4.7 grains. I understand you tried to compensate for the magnum primer, but set 2 & 3 were created using the proper primer and you experienced the same problem. Also, note to yourself, don't experiment with primers at this stage. Please wait until you have a good deal more experience and look to this boards' history of conversations surrounding the subject. You want to be safe in your work, which is to say, you don't take unnecessary chances. Use the prescribed components. You'll also find commentary regarding what should and shouldn't be on your bench as you work, double checking your components prior to beginning a loading session, etc.

My last observation is your decision to procure a "Lyman handgun cartridge ammo checker block." I assume you are referring to a "case gauge." You don't need this device. Your barrel is the best case gauge you can employ. Also, please purchase a caliper. You'll need that to measure components, including completed rounds for OAL.

Please be careful, take your time and be safe. Procedure is everything.

 

[kmw1954]

Hello again Mark,

Thought I'd follow you over to your new topic. Good job!

After thinking about your previous comments I looked back thru my notes and I see you are not far off from where I am.

I still think your rounds are a bit short. I've been loading the 115gr Berry's at 1.125" out to 1.140". Have you tried the "plunk test" yet? With my Taurus 92 I found I could easily stretch it out to 1.170" only the bullet is too short and there would be hardly any in the case. But I have found in my gun it likes to be around 1.130" to 1.135" and at this length I'm loading at 4.2/4.3gr using the Lee Disk measure #40 or 4.5gr with the Lee Disk #43 and the Hodgdon HP-38 powder and WSP primers.

The 4.5gr HP-38 loaded at 1.130 seems to be the load my gun likes best and is my go to load with the 115gr bullet. It shoots very well in both my Taurus PT92C and the XD Mod2.

 

[markr6754]

Mark, thanks for the comments. I appreciate your input. Re: primers. I really wasn’t experimenting. I did not intentionally purchase the Magnum primers. I sought help from Cabelas staff for the powder, the primers, and the bullets, and went with that. I processed in batches, so primers and flaring came first...I prepared 100 cases. Then I started prepping another 100 cases...and saw the Magnum label. I watched some You Tube videos on ejecting live primers, and decided it was too risky for me. Thus, according to Hornady Reloading Manual, they say if you go outside standards on one factor, go light on another factor to offset it. In this case I decided to load lighter, roughly 10% less powder.

Back to Cabelas and asked for help getting non-Magnum primers. They had to retrieve from the warehouse. After a 25 minute wait (appropriately spent browsing new pistols) they brought me a box of....you got it...Magnum primers. This time I got down on hands and knees (primers are shelved just off the floor) and found a box of small pistol standard primers.

Safety is utmost on my mind, but I appreciate your exhortation all the same. I want to load safe, and intend to proceed very slowly and cautiously. I’m not looking to blow out huge loads.... no +P, no Magnum loads.

BTW - I did buy a Hornady dial caliper the day I bought all the other ingredients. Used it frequently to get to the seating depth I wanted. I think I have that part down solid...what I’m not clear about is my crimping. I set the Lee die according to directions for a “light crimp”, but I don’t know if it really was a crimp at all. Need to test a few powderless loads to get more familiar with this step.

 

[markr6754]

Kmw1954, thanks for the encouragement.
You have me scratching my head. Explain “plunk test”. (EDIT: Another responder provided a link to an article explaining Plunk Test).

Also, don’t know what the Lee Disk measures #40 or #43 refer to. (EDIT: Looked it up, now I get it. Don't have the luxury of that tool).

I bought the Hornady Pistol Rotor for my powder measure...then dialed in until I had consistent 4.6 grains in the pan, then dropped direct to the cartridge. So my final loads were 4.6 grains, close to your ideal round, but I went with the 1.10” seating based the Hornady book for 115 gr. FMJ RN from their book, where they guide for 4.1 gr., 4.4 gr., or 4.7 gr.

I’ll load a group for 4.5 gr. with the WSP primer and set COL to 1.30” and let you know my results.

Subsequent to this experience, I pulled the extractor and spring and cleaned thoroughly. Picked out all the debris I could get to around the firing pin and flushed it out, too. It’s a sad commentary...It’s the first time I’ve ever done that. Has this pistol over 30 years and never knew that was a standard maintenance procedure. Maybe learning how to reload isn’t the only learning I have to do!

Expecting a different experience when I next trial my loads.

 

[74A95]

Your load is a bit light so it doesn't produce much of a recoil impulse, therefore it might not cycle the gun reliably. 231 is known for this in the 9mm Luger because it does not require much weight. Also, the Hornady data shows a max velocity with 231 and 115 grain bullets at 1100 fps. That speed is low for that bullet weight, hence the low recoil impulse.

Understanding the recoil impulse: comparing two powders that produce the same speed with the same bullet, the one that requires more weight produces more recoil force. Once you understand this, you can select powders that can increase or decrease recoil to your needs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil#Including_the_ejected_gas

Hodgdon's website shows charge weights up to 5.1 grains with 231 with a Speer gold dot loaded to 1.125".

OAL matters and the longer you load, the less the pressure with the same powder charge.

231 is not affected much by magnum primers in the 9mm based on my experience. No real gain in velocity, unknown about pressure differences.

If you decide to try a different gunpowder, Power Pistol is superb in the 9mm. Very accurate! It's a little flashy and loud but works well.



plunk test explained: http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/reloading-tips-the-plunk-test/

 

[markr6754]

74A95 - Thanks for the info. Have been reading about Powder Pistol...seems to be a very popular powder for general handgun use. I'm coming to understand that while a gauge is a gauge is a gauge, the same cannot be said of powders. Fast burning vs slow/er burning. Just re-read that section of Hornady book. To clarify, I am using Hodgdon HP-38 vs WIN 231, but several manuals said to use 231 data for HP-38, though I see they have some differences.

Thanks for sharing the educational links. That's why I came to this site. Great support from you seniors (by Forum if not by age).

 

[74A95]

Winchester 231 and HP-38 are the exact same powder. Look at the Hodgdon data and take a hint from the fact that they use the exact same charge weight and produce the exact same pressure and velocity. Any differences in other manuals are likely due to using different lot numbers.

 

[74A95]

Another way to help understand recoil is to use a recoil calculator like the one here: http://kwk.us/recoil.html

Plug in your numbers, then just change the weight of the gunpowder and leave everything else alone and see recoil go up as powder weight goes up.

 

[kmw1954]

Good experience for you.

I load with a Lee Auto drum measure and a Lee Auto disk measure. The Auto Drum measure is much like your Hornady measure. The Disk measure uses round disks with different sized holes in them for the powder measurement. The #40 and #43 refer to the cavity size in the disk.

Plunk test;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdJLNox1hpk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVVHtgAFpzM

Here are a couple videos on plunk test. On the second one I suggest turning your volume down as the into is quite loud.

As I found our XD Mod2 has a tighter chamber than my PT92C so I load to the XD and find no problems moving those loads between the 2 guns. I also do not load to max levels as for 1 I find it uncomfortable to shoot all day and it also doesn't beat the gun up.

 

[kmw1954]

I was going to add some info but decided against it for now so as to not confuse the issue.

HP-38/Win231 is a very widely used powder with many different weight bullets in many different calibers. I believe the problem is something other than the powder or the bullet being used.

For instance my Taurus PT92C is a rebranded Beretta 92, this Taurus has a very light trigger hand hammer and because of this I cannot reliably fire loads with CCI primers in them. I get an almost 50% failure rate when I do. All other primers function normally.

What I was going to add before is that I just started using a Maglula loader and as soon as I did I started having problems with 2 different guns. As it turns out it is the way I was loading the mag's. Went back to hand loading the mag's and the problem went away. Amazing.

I think you are on the right track by lengthening the loads and doing a thorough cleaning of the gun.

Shoot what you have and post back.

 

[F. Guffey]

I am not the fan of the light load and then one day my wife was asked to get her conceal carry. Shooting my pistols with heavy recoil did not work for her. I could not get her to get a solid grip on the slide action pistols, She had something called 'weak wrist; meaning I had to load heavier or train her on pistols with cylinders.

When she took her test the instructor said: "We do not have anyone in this class that is not qualifying with a S/A, do we?" I had no problem coming up with the pistol and the instructor came up with the ammo.

F. Guffey

 

[Don Fischer]

I have the same advice for ll new reloader's. Buy one manual from the manufacturer who's bullet's you want to use. Follow their directions and ignore any shortcut's or great ideas other's want to give you. Before trying new thing's, learn to make good ammo first! Unless your manual calls for magnum primer's, do not substitute! I know you got them by mistake. One mistake early like that is not a problem. Simply put them away somewhere and get the standard primer's called for. You should always start low and work up. Because of that, small pistol primer's are fine. Brand isn't as important as type.

 

[Fotheringill]

OP-

Do NOT get discouraged. Everyone starting out has severe scalp itch resulting in scratching one's head.

Go slow, load in small batches per the "book". Once that is mastered, you will have less itch.

 

[kmw1954]

Don that is good advice accept in this case the bullet manufacture doesn't have a manual.

I suggest doing as the OP has done and go to the powder manufacture website as that would be the most current data available. Again accept in this case the powder manufacturer doesn't offer load data for that bullet either. So what to do?

I always suggest new loaders to look for a published load that has all the components available to them w/o having to substitute anything so if they start at the beginning and use starting load data they can be assured that the load is safe and should perform reasonably..

 

[Tsquared]

I always suggest new loaders to look for a published load that has all the components available to them w/o having to substitute anything so if they start at the beginning and use starting load data they can be assured that the load is safe and should perform reasonably..

This is what I have preached to the people I have shown how to reload. I also show them how on a single stage press so that they will know how to set up the dies.

 

[Reloadron]

It's all part of a learning curve, not a very steep curve but none the less a curve.

I started hand loading around 1972. I came home from Vietnam a 22 tear old Marine with a fascination of snipers and accurate ammunition which I have no clue why as I was never a sniper and never even knew one. After rifle I moved to handgun and my first loads were the Remington 44 Magnum. Talk about a train wreck? My first attempts were on a progressive press and I tried to go slow and watch everything. I did learn that a magnum primer less any powder is just enough to move the bullet into the forcing cone and jam the cylinder. Think I loaded 50 rounds and about one in every five had no powder. They looked real nice though.

As you saw your loads using a heavier charge seemed to function better. Using a 115 grain bullet over HP 38 powder Hodgdon suggest 115 GR. SPR GDHP (Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point) Hodgdon HP-38 .355" Diameter 1.125" C.O.L. 4.7 Grain START working up to 5.1 Grain MAXIMUM. Then for a LRN (Lead Round Nose the loads are a little lighter with 4.3 Grains START and 4.8 Grains MAXIMUM. Working up your loads along with experience which comes with time will yield ammunition which functions well in your guns. Always use reliable published data from the guys who made the bullets or the powder. Patience along with good advice will get you there.

Wishing you all the best in what will likely become a much enjoyed hobby.

Ron

 

[kmw1954]

In this case with markr6754 I will state that by starting with the bullet he did, Berry's 115gr Plated RN, which in my mind is an excellent product and really poses no more difficulties than any other bullet to start with. It still needs to be understood and used and loaded as it was designed to be used. It also needs to be understood that Plated bullets are NOT cast lead and they are Not Jacketed.

If he were to have come to me before he started and stated he wanted to load this bullet I would have steered him towards a different powder, one that has published data available for this bullet. Not that I have anything against HP-38 because I don't. I have right now 250 rounds of this 115gr plated bullet loaded with HP-38 sitting on my shelf. I also have another 100 rounds with this bullet loaded with Ramshot Silhouette, which has published data for this bullet.

So to those new to reloading please research what it is you want to do before you start. Make a list of components that can be used and then mark that list with what you can obtain to match some reliable published data.

 

[jamaica]

#1: Get the Lyman Reloading Handbook.
#2 Read the book!
#3 Follow instructions.
#4 Pick a load from the data in the manual then go buy components. Please do not
go grabbing loads off the internet!
#5 Start low and work up.

 

[mikejonestkd]

Mark, i have to smile when I read about your reloading issues, because I went through the same situation about three years ago.
Same gun - beretta 92FS, brand new out of the box
Same bullet- 115 gr berry's plated
Same powder - win 231/ HP38
Same OAl - 1.10"
Same dies- Lee 4 die carbide set.

When the Beretta was brand new it would not cycle lower powered loads like your 4.4 gr ones.
I ran a few hundred full power loads with heavier bullets though the 92 and then it easily cycled 4.4 gr and eventually even 4.2 gr loads with the 115 gr berry's.

When I pop in new spring I run 100 full powered rounds through the 92 and then drop down the charge weight again.

Keep shooting the 92 and there is a good chance it'll eventually run better with lower powered loads.