First encounter with police since permit issue

[harry mudd]

In Indianapolis Indiana you would have been dragged out of your car and thrown into the street with a knee on your neck. I suppose volunteering that you are also armed is considered a threat or indicates that you aren't impressed by THEIR guns. As for me, I am tired of picking gravel out of my teeth. I NEVER volunteer that information. I don't even always answer truthfully when asked directly. As far as filing a complaint, in Indy that would be just plain foolish! If the same guy stops you again he will certainly remember you. Don't forget that you will probably be packing heat when he sees you again, an easy arrest for a hotdog cop permit or not. It COULD get even worse than legal trouble, you could wake up in the hospital or the morgue. You do have the right to remain silent, use it.

 

[ChileVerde1]

I appreciate it when folks I talk to, who are lawfully armed, inform me that they are so. I usually ask to see their permit and ID but most folks already volunteer that without being asked. I never ask to see the weapons unless there is reasonable suspicion that something else is afoot. Then I will make the weapons safe and separate them from the subjects (usually placing the firearm in or on my vehicle). It's for my safety. I'll keep them there until the detention or interview is concluded and then thank whoever for their patience or not and send them on their way.

Something about you, your vehicle, or the circumstances around your encounter (time of night, out of state plates, etc...) may have triggered the Officer's suspicion. However, there is absolutely no excuse for the "badass" comment by the other Officer. Unfortunately, there are people in every profession who, when they have a little power over someone, don't waste any chance to yell at them or make stupid comments. It's usually young guys. I'll pull them aside after the person is gone on their way and fix the problem right there by giving them a bigger earful than they gave my subject. I and other veteran Officers generally don't like to work with people like that because it just makes for more trouble. There is truth to the adage that "you catch more flies with honey." Comments like that can cause otherwise tranquil subjects to become violent and does not make for good Officer presence.

You handled the situation well by staying calm and being respectful. Next time a call to the Officer's Sergeant may be in order after you've cleared the incident. People like that usually have a long paper trail of complaints and that's something that needs to be relayed up their chain of command in case of future problems.

 

[Glenn Dee]

I'll have to play the devils advocate here.

I fully understand the position of the Police. Based in the info the OP shared... I'd bet the Bus stop was in an unsavory pert of town. (as bus stations tend to be) The OP had no information on what the police knew. From the number of officers in the area i'd bet there was at least one ongoing condition in that area.

Just because a person has a carry permit dont make him a good guy. Also three or four guys with two guns at 2:30 in the A/M kind of sounds like maybe a stick-up team. A driver, a lookout, and two gun-men. I believe the police probably acted properly.

Although it's perfectly legal, and probably prudent to carry a second firearm to a bad area at 2:30am it can be viewed differently by the police. Once investigated to their sstisfaction, and proper explinations are given... Then the situation can be calmed down.

However I dont get why they seperated the gun and ammo... Unless their suspicions were not satisfied.

 

[Edward429451]

Just because a person has a carry permit dont make him a good guy.

So what is the sense in getting a ccw permit? If one is clean enough to pass the background check, pay the fees, pay for the classes, jumps through all the hoops...for what? To be identifiable as a good guy who's already been checked out and to eliminate the hassle that normally ensues when one is found carrying a gun around. But if all the hoops do not give us that, then I see no advantage to having a ccw permit.

The big thing that bugs me about the ccw permit is the signature thing. It seems to me that when something is against the law, you do not have to sign anything to affirm that we will not do it (ex. Murder, Robbery, etc..). A signature is a very big thing and it certifys that you agree with the terms of the contract. Americans do not have to sign contracts to excercise thier rights. When you sign those ccw contracts, you are modifying your rights to conform to thier ideals and rules.

I surmise that people who have no ccw permit have less restrictions than those that are bound to the ccw regulations/contracts. Yes, I have been detained, and even cuffed up for a short while when I informed the officer that I had a gun in the vehicle...and sent me on my way after ascertaining that I was not wanted or in violation...but I didn't have to pay for the privilege!

 

[woodguru]

How about this for clearly articulated facts supporting supicious behavior?

Sure you announce you have a CWP and a gun, no red flags. You announce you have a CWP and two guns all kinds of warnings run in my head. Two guns, maybe one belongs to the other guy in the car who doesn't have a permit to carry. You are sitting there at wee morning hours of course they are going to check things out.

That is a reasonable cause to check ID's, run them, and carefully leave the scene.

One gun more than likely wouldn't have raised as much reaction. Had the OP refused to show ID, lipped off about his rights, and been generally uncooperative it would have been taken further. A cooperative attitude got him away with his guns, no harm no real foul.

And by the way, all this time and no bus to pick up the one being dropped off? I'm surprised the cops didn't want to see proof of the being dropped off story.

Yeah we've got rights but I never have had a problem with the general idea of citizens being required to show ID as a minimum level cooperative effort to help identify felons and illegals.

 

[AH.74]

Woodguru, checking things out is one thing. Detaining him in handcuffs for 20 minutes in the cold is another.

So you are an advocate of being guilty until having proven yourself innocent? Whatever happened to standing up for your rights and demanding to be treated as an innocent person first?

Sitting in a car where you have a legal right to be, at any time of day, is not in and of itself cause for suspicion of criminal activity.

Carrying 2 or 3 or 10 guns in your car, if legal, is of no concern to the police if you are not seemingly about to commit a crime.

 

[illbits]

Couple extra things. First I should point out that new laws require you to identify yourself by name when asked for that info by an officer. If you are in your car you might be required to provide a drivers license when asked but you will need to check your local laws for that info.

I also believe an officer can ask you to step out of your car, especially when safety is concerned. By offering the fact that you had 2 guns without displaying your permit you may have opened yourself up to a deeper search? Not sure about that, but you could have vocalized that you do not consent to a search of your property.

 

[AH.74]

By offering the fact that you had 2 guns without displaying your permit you may have opened yourself up to a deeper search?

He said he had a permit and that it was in his wallet. I am gathering that he did not want to actually reach for his wallet without announcing it to the police.

That is not the same as not displaying his permit.

If it is not illegal to conceal 2 guns in WV the issue should be irrelevant.

 

[miboso]

When I came on the Police Force in 1969,you almost never heard of a Cop being killed by someone in the line of duty.Jump fast forward to now and hundreds of Cops are being killed and millions assaulted.

And don't we now have much more regulation than we did then (1969)?

Mayhaps one could extrapolate that all of this regulation has created more problems than it has solved. And that's all without discussing the constitutionality of all this regulation

 

[BILLtheDJguy]

There are many points that could be argued...
The population explosion,
The number of weapons stolen/lost,
The revolving door utilized by many local judicial systems,
Video games/movies that desensitize us to killing and violence...

All mostly hogwash!

I think the biggest issue is criminals who have gotten away with too much for too long, and feel some sort of invincibility or simply have a great disdain for any type of rule or control.
Law enforcement training has had to adjust to the mentality displayed by certain individuals, and some LEO's tend to throw the blanket of equality over everyone, just to feel safe. Some could call it laziness, others understand, completely.
The simple truth is, that cops deserve to go home at night, the same as the rest of us. And, the criminal element that would seek to prevent that, needs to be eradicated from a civilized society.

 

[m&p45acp10+1]

Ok folks just ask your self this given this information, if you were the cop would you have found out what three white people in the car were doing there?
Grey Hound stations tend to be in the seedy neighborhoods. (Disco I do not blame you for carrying there at all, I know I would make darn sure I was carrying if I had to go to one. My head would be on a swivel too.) Also they tend to be magnets for drug dealers, and people trying to score. As well as the other plethora of criminal activites that go on around one. So three white people in a car there late at night to me would look to me like they may be there to sell, or score.
Note I am in no way in agreement for the way you were treated after the fact that they found out you were in fact there for your brother to catch a bus.
You did the right thing in not being confrontive with them. By being polite you avoinded making them think you were combative, or uncooperative. You folks can say all of what you want about rights. When the police start to issue orders if you fail to follow them it is not gonna be a good time for you. At best you are gonna get a stern talking to. Most likely you are gonna take a ride in hard plastic puke proof seat wearing hand cuffs to the local jail.
By all means file a complaint after the fact.

 

[jwalker497]

QUOTE "You announce you have a CWP and two guns all kinds of warnings run in my head. Two guns, maybe one belongs to the other guy in the car who doesn't have a permit to carry." That is a reasonable cause to check ID's, run them, and carefully leave the scene.

I belive what you have just described is officer who has taken oath to prtoect and defend citizens lawful rights, consciously superimposing his own biases and paranioa over that of the law. Frankly, that kind of behavior sends all kinds of warnings run through my head - Maybe this LEO does'nt know the laws or maybe this LEO is abusing the power granted to him by the citizens. This may be reaosnable cause to re-evaluate the LEO to determine if they are fit for public service.

Again, this works both ways.

If someone has a permit and that permit doesnt limit or dictate the amount of guns they can carry what right does a LEO have to determine how many is too many?? That is subjective and I do not belive that any LEO has the authority to pass judgement on any law nor are they the creaters of new laws. The badge obliges the holder to enforce the laws already in place. To think otherwise is arrogant and abhorrent in a replublic.

 

[BILLtheDJguy]

Technically, we aren't a Republic...We are an Oligarchy...

 

[jwalker497]

I would agree Bill, power in the hands of a few.

 

[Iron Man]

Here are some profiling clues that might make this easier for you guys.

1. Three people in one car with two guns. How can the officer know who owns the second gun? In most permit states the permit holder goes through a background check that validates they are a law abiding citizen. It says nothing about their friends. If one of your two friends in the car were a felon there could have been serious issues.

2. When approached by the officer did you tell everyone in the car to make sure their hands were where the officers could see them and turn on your overhead lights? Not doing so is a big warning.

3. Face it, there aren't a lot of people waiting to catch busses at 2:30 in the morning. Most bus stations are in the heart of metropolitan areas that usually have a somewhat higher crime rate.

4. Next time, tell the officer you have your conceal and carry permit and you are armed. Do not volunteer any additional information unless asked.

5. You are obligated to follow all police orders regardless of what is requested. If originally two officers approached you and there were three of you, I understand why 1/3 of the group was put in cuffs. It equalized the playing field.

6. Resonable cause. This has very broad terms and could relate to something as simple as a tatoo and a hat on crooked (two gang elements) or the similarity between one of your group and a suspect.

However, the statement about you losing your permit and a lot of the other stuff sounded like dick wagging. I once had a cop pull me over because I was singing "Bad boys" when he turned on his lights and siren because a woman was parked at a curb in front of Starbucks. The first thing I said was, "I have a conceal and carry permit and I am armed." He responded with, "Well, if you don't shoot me, then I won't shoot you." He picked on me a bit for my choice of songs and we parted ways, both of us laughing.

Your story could have ended badly. If you had the guns but no conceal permit, it would have ended very very badly.

 

[AZAK]

Technically, we aren't a Republic...We are an Oligarchy...

You may live in an Oligarchy, I live in a Republic.

And if you mean, "What it looks like to many others" then the term might be a plutarchy.

If, and this is a big if, enough of us live in a Republic and act accordingly, then a Republic it is; if not, then there is an entire host of fun words that we can pull out to play with to describe our lack of ...

 

[AH.74]

1. Three people in one car with two guns. How can the officer know who owns the second gun? In most permit states the permit holder goes through a background check that validates they are a law abiding citizen. It says nothing about their friends. If one of your two friends in the car were a felon there could have been serious issues.

4. Next time, tell the officer you have your conceal and carry permit and you are armed. Do not volunteer any additional information unless asked.

In the OP it was clearly stated that the driver said "I have 2 loaded handguns and a permit for them."

No issue about the others in the car exists at that point, felons or not. They did not have possession of his guns.

 

[Iron Man]

Yes, it was stated in the original post, but how many times do you see on COPS when guy gets pulled over and they find pot. His first words are, "That isn't mine!"

The cops know that everyone who says something from behind the wheel is telling the truth.

Look beyond the OP and into the situation. There are a lot of moving parts.

 

[Pbearperry]

This whole problem will disappear as soon as Patrol cars get those much needed crystal balls.However I do agree that handcuffing a person who has a carry permit without any other justification is way out of line.That cop needs a good spanking either by lawsuit or firing.I think states that require lawful carriers of firearms to inform Leos is a big mistake.It just adds more problems to the traffic stop.If someone pulls a gun on a cop you shoot him,permit or no permit.

 

[AH.74]

Look beyond the OP and into the situation. There are a lot of moving parts.

Often so, but not really in this case. People sitting in car waiting, doing nothing else. No funny business as cops come up to check, parties polite and agreeable.

There aren't many moving parts, and not a lot of ambiguities from what I can see.