Firearms Used At The Battle Of The Little Bighorn

[Savvy_Jack]

I've read that one or two fires in the area exposed a lot of material for archaeologists to work on.

I've also read that several Medals of Honor were awarded for those trying to get water during the fight.

I bought a copy of the 'Bring packs' letter as a magnet when I was there.

This is correct. The fires burned out the grasses and shrubs making it much easier to survey the areas.

For the record, artifacts recovered during the 1984 survey linked to rifles used.

Rifle/Revolvers represented;

• 130 - Springfield 73
• 108 - 44 Henry/[Win 66's]
• 35 - Sharps .50
• 31 - Colt 45
• 13 - Springfield .50
• 8 - Winchester 73

all others listed below 8 each

Total 371 firearms represented with the collection of 767 cartridge cases, 1,453 bullets.

 

[Savvy_Jack]

Here are the Cartridge Case recovery areas on the Custer Battlefield and the Reno-Benteen Defense Area. I am not finished with the Reno-Benteen Area but I did get the 44's on there.

Oh here are direct photo links for those that don't like to click links

 

[Adventurer 2]

pwc

Comanche the horse, in the mid 60s, was on display at Kansas U, in Topeka. It had been "stuffed" an was in a big glass case; sadly it wasn't well preserved, there were places where the hair had raised and bare patches. I don't l know if it's still there or not.

pwc - Comanche (the horse) was at the University of Kansas, Museum of Natural History (Lawrence) the last time i visited in 2017.

 

[ghbucky]

There was an eye witness account recorded in 1915 - Chief John Grass. He knew Custer personally:

“Custer cut his long hair off his head that night and we looked for him but could not see him. But when he gave commands, we could tell his voice and knew him for sure, and then his face proved it, too. We think that when the man who gives the commands gets killed that the rest of the soldiers will get mixed up. We watched for the man who gave commands and it was Custer with cut-off hair that day. I think many of the men with him were drunk with whiskey. They tried to scare us and waved their arms and shot into the air like cowboys when they rode down the hill. He was a brave man or he did not know how to give battle, for he rushed upon the village waving his arms when he came.”

“There were five men rode ahead of the rest. They were killed first. One of them was General Custer. We rushed out of a draw in the hills and rode against them then. After the man who gave commands was killed, they carried his body back up the hill between them on horses, but the soldiers were all mixed up. I saw two soldiers in a hole drink from a bottle and then throw at an Indian. We rode around them. They waved their arms and fired into the air and they yelled a lot.”

They had met 2 years previously:

“There was no one (meaning warriors) in camp when Custer started to charge it. They were fighting in the other two places away south of where I was. Others were watching in the draws in the hills and waiting for Custer to get there. We knew he would. He was a fool. He was brave to do it. He smoked a pipe with me in the Black Hills in two years before that time. He told us that he was there to protect poor Indians from bad white men. He said that there would never be any fighting with the army people. He lied to me.

emphasis mine.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

For the record, artifacts recovered during the 1984 survey linked to rifles used.

Rifle/Revolvers represented;

130 - Springfield 73
108 - 44 Henry/[Win 66's]
35 - Sharps .50
31 - Colt 45
13 - Springfield .50
8 - Winchester 73

How were those 108 artifacts associated with Winchester 1866's? Everything I have read about the battle suggests that the Indians has 1860 Henry rifles, not Winchester 1866's. I'm pretty sure Custer's troopers didn't have either Henrys or Winchesters.

 

[105kw]

From what I've read the difference in firing pin strikes can indicate which 44RF fired the cartridge. One of them used a double firing pin, the other used a single.
FWIW the 1866 Winchester was originally called the Improved Henry.

At least two of Custers scouts were carrying Henry's. They wanted the improved firepower.
One of them was Charley Reynolds. Both were with Reno, and both were killed in the attack and rout retreat.

 

[Savvy_Jack]

How were those 108 artifacts associated with Winchester 1866's? Everything I have read about the battle suggests that the Indians has 1860 Henry rifles, not Winchester 1866's. I'm pretty sure Custer's troopers didn't have either Henrys or Winchesters.

In Scott's book, Archaeological Perspectives on the BLBH, he quit frequently mentions the Henry rifles as well as the Winchester 66' rifles. On pages 162, 163, 164, 165, 166 he talks about the 44's. There he explains the Henry, Win 66 and 73'. Also done in his earlier books. He also explains the henry and 66 misfire problems and shell extraction problems. If the shell is not noted to have been extracted, the recovered cases would show the double rimfire striker marks. Some of the double striker marks, used on both the Henry and 66, show deeper impressions, deeper strikers typical of the improved 66 design, but was changed back to the shorter in later arms and reverted back to prone misfires, so Scott reports!

There is no reason to suspect that all of a sudden there were no 66's used by the warriors. If they can get at least 11 or so 73's in three years, certainly they had a fair share of 66's. There were numerous Henry Flat bullets recovered from the fields.

 

[Carl the Floor Walker]

Every battle is confusing, and the only survivor from Custer's immediate command was Myles Keogh's horse Comanche who never spoke about it. Custer fought a very poor battle, no proper recon, divided his forces, not mutually supporting, badly misunderestimated the enemy both in numbers and fighting ability. Then there all the stories about the Indians "pumping their Winchesters", etc.

I do not believe all the stories about how Bad Custer was and the mistakes as reported by some. Dividing his troops and his plan of attack were a common tactic used in the Civil war taught at West Point etc. Regardless of a ego or not, he proved true leadership in the Civil War and no one questioned his bravery.

By the way, some years ago National Geographic did a great series on The Battle of the Bighorn. I take a lot of the hearsay of Custer Being inept and his ego as the cause of the slaughter with a grain of salt. There are two sides of the story.

 

[44 AMP]

Dividing his troops and his plan of attack were a common tactic used in the Civil war taught at West Point etc. Regardless of a ego or not, he proved true leadership in the Civil War and no one questioned his bravery.

First point, Custer's personal courage isn't an issue.

Second, and primary point, history judges him inept because of 20/20 hindsight, and the ultimate military error, he lost.

Splitting your forces so as to be able to attack multiple objectives is an old tactic and taught in the academies, BUT they also teach that it only works when the correlation of forces is in your favor. And they also teach that when that situation does not exist, you invite defeat in detail.

NO one teaches you to split up your forces when you are outnumbered, and that was the cardinal error of Custer's attack, he did not recognize the situation for what it actually was, and executed his plans based on what he wanted it to be. In that, he is hardly alone in military history.

In many cases, a leader's failure to accurately understand the situation before engaging is ascribed to their ego. Sometimes that is accurate, sometimes not. Most accounts paint Custer as someone who was right, until he was very badly wrong.

 

[Carl the Floor Walker]

First point, his ego not a issue. If you want to define his character then define all of it, including is Civil War accomplishments including his bravery. Most Generals or many had big Ego's. But this is not always the case on the battlefield

Second point Lol, I never said that anyone teaches you divide forces when you are outnumbered. Obviously he did not have exact numbers or any true idea he was outnumbered. He was not suicidal.
You say, his decision was based on "What he wanted it to be". What he wanted was or do, was accomplish his mission and of course he wanted to be successful. He was a busy man that day, annualizing all kinds of conflicting opinions and options. Easy to say in hindsight what you are anyone else wants to arm chair. Maybe not so easy in reality.
From "Did Custer use the wrong guns"

“The battle took place over a six-mile field and Custer’s units were scattered on different portions of it,” Jasmer said. “The battle was not over as quickly as we previously thought back in the 1980s. It took about an hour-and-a-half. Custer had divided his force, so the tribesmen were able to defeat the four separate parts of the regiment piecemeal.”
From Guns used by Custer

https://www.guns.com/news/2011/05/03/american-myths-did-custers-trooper-use-the-wrong-guns

10 myths of the Battle of the Bighorn for starters. Like I said, two sides to every story.


https://www.historynet.com/ten-myths-of-the-little-bighorn.htm

 

[Carl the Floor Walker]

I know there is great debate over this issue, what's new right? I have been working on mapping out some artifact recovery locations between 1984 and 2004.

The following video clip (see link below) is not finished, may never be finished, so I wanted to share what I have so far for the Reno-Benteen Defense area. I still have a few items to add.

45-55 Cases
45-55-405 Bullets
44 Henry Cases and Bullets
a few 44-40 cases
50-70 items

I still need to add 45 Colt items too.

Kind of gives an idea as to the positions when shooting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6veJ8euWKA

Might as well link to the one from the Custer Battle Field too. It's a bit cheezy but it works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y05aeFNxn1U

Great work Jack.

 

[Savvy_Jack]

Thanks guys!

I really would like to know more about the Henry and 66's. Here is a group of spent or mis-fired cartridges. Wonder which was from Henry's and which was from the 66's

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jy0pGqWPRx2HOQqufbcnEM1lv6tCWBJsCOB8vLIDOIg/edit#gid=1599374672

 

[Carl the Floor Walker]

It would be Interesting to see how many Henry's the Indians actually carried , which Tribes and ammo availability for them. I have read that Custer's cavalry carried 100 rds for the Springfield and 50 rds for the Colt.

Some more info on the Springfield and ammo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_model_1873

Many types of weapons used. Military did little target practice.

https://www.historynet.com/battle-of-little-bighorn-were-the-weapons-the-deciding-factor.htm

 

[ghbucky]

Obviously he did not have exact numbers or any true idea he was outnumbered.

He observed the immense pony herds before he even ordered movement. He should have known what that many horses meant.

That 10 myths link conveniently leaves out a lot of conflicting eyewitness accounts trying to make its point. I quoted previously Chief John Grass, who personally knew Custer, saw him shot and killed at first contact. Custer was no longer in command after his column made contact.

The Sioux knew Custer's column was circling around to the North and were waiting for them. He rode into an ambush and his command was destroyed. Multiple eye witness accounts of the day, both from Weir (a company commander) and from Sioux say the fight was over in about 30 minutes. Weir observed the Sioux firing at the ground at 5:05, apparently mopping up.

There were multiple 'last stands' as evidenced by the widely scattered casings and reports from Terry's column when they arrived. I read that they found roughly 40 bodies on last stand hill with breastworks made of shot horses, including Custer and his relatives, but I can't find any digitized source material.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Second point Lol, I never said that anyone teaches you divide forces when you are outnumbered. Obviously he did not have exact numbers or any true idea he was outnumbered. He was not suicidal.

But he DID have an idea he was outnumbered. He was told by his scouts that they had never seen an Indian encampment nearly as large as this one. Custer ignored that, and assumed that these Indians would react as other (smaller) encampments had in the past -- by trying to evacuate the women and children.

"He chose poorly." [Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail]

Or, as General George Patton said: "Successful generals make plans to fit circumstances, but do not try to create circumstances to fit plans." Custer had a plan that did not fit the circumstances, and he chose not to recognize that.

 

[Adventurer 2]

I tried to find an essay I did on The Battle Of Little Big Horn from the Kate 80s - I don’t have any thing to read 5 1/4 floppies. I recall Custer had aspirations to campaign for the Presidency of the USA. I believe he had Gatling guns in his TOE, Table Organization Equipment, however, he decided not to take them as they would have slowed him down.

 

[Adventurer 2]

I remember using this Treasure magazine as a source for my essay and two books which I probably still own (but in storage):
https://www.friendslittlebighorn.com/Dig-of-1984.htm
I wonder what they could find with today’s metal detectors?

 

[Carl the Floor Walker]

But he DID have an idea he was outnumbered. He was told by his scouts that they had never seen an Indian encampment nearly as large as this one. Custer ignored that, and assumed that these Indians would react as other (smaller) encampments had in the past -- by trying to evacuate the women and children.

"He chose poorly." [Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail]

Or, as General George Patton said: "Successful generals make plans to fit circumstances, but do not try to create circumstances to fit plans." Custer had a plan that did not fit the circumstances, and he chose not to recognize that.

Actually he did have conflicting accounts at the beginning, but eventually did listen to his scouts and knew their size. He had originally planned to attack the Village the next day. However after listening to the Scouts and seeing other Indians picking up supplies they had left on the trail with his binoculars, he then changed his original plan and attacked earlier that day rather than wait which was what the Scouts advised to him.

 

[105kw]

Another point, Custer hadn't been promoted since he he accepted a rank of Lt. Col in the 7th. He was the defacto C.O., but Col Sturgis was the commander. He refused to serve in the west. So Custer had command, with no promotion.
He wasn't the Boy General anymore, but was coming up on his 37th birthday.
And hadn't been in the news since The Dakotas expedition.

The Gatling guns were on artillery carriages, with caissons, towed by condemned cavalry horses. Probably not the best thing if you're going over broken country. At least that was Custer thoughts, apparently.

 

[Carl the Floor Walker]

Custer rode hard, fast and long. His troops referred to him as Iron Butt.