Firearms Used At The Battle Of The Little Bighorn

[Savvy_Jack]

I know there is great debate over this issue, what's new right? I have been working on mapping out some artifact recovery locations between 1984 and 2004.

The following video clip (see link below) is not finished, may never be finished, so I wanted to share what I have so far for the Reno-Benteen Defense area. I still have a few items to add.

45-55 Cases
45-55-405 Bullets
44 Henry Cases and Bullets
a few 44-40 cases
50-70 items

I still need to add 45 Colt items too.

Kind of gives an idea as to the positions when shooting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6veJ8euWKA

Might as well link to the one from the Custer Battle Field too. It's a bit cheezy but it works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y05aeFNxn1U

 

[ghbucky]

Thanks for that.

I've visited that battlefield twice, once in the 90s and a couple of years ago. They've done a lot of improvements that lays out how the battle took place in the interim.

The only thing I could take away from my last visit and a couple of hours looking the battlefield over was that Custer was a complete and total idiot that wasted a lot of lives to accomplish nothing.

 

[Savvy_Jack]

Thanks for that.

I've visited that battlefield twice, once in the 90s and a couple of years ago. They've done a lot of improvements that lays out how the battle took place in the interim.

The only thing I could take away from my last visit and a couple of hours looking the battlefield over was that Custer was a complete and total idiot that wasted a lot of lives to accomplish nothing.

Yeah, I have no idea as who did what, why, when or how. I have been reading up on a few items just so I can try to map some features I am interested in.

It was all political.

 

[tdrizzle]

There are two good books I have on the topic I'd recommend if you have not read them:

Archaeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Bighorn, by Douglas Scott, et al and Documenting the Weapons Used at the Little Bighorn by Wendell Grangaard.

I agree, fascinating place. I drove way back to the Reno/Benteen sites the last time I was there, several years ago on the 4th of July, coincidentally. Had the whole place basically to myself.

Seeing the small cover the troopers tried to fashion with pocketknives and mess tins while being shot at, as well as the mass (estimated) number of fallen near the hill brought history to life in a way nothing else can.

 

[pwc]

Years ago, there was a show on the History Channel or PBS, don't remember which, that talked about this and they found a native american family that had a gun purported to have been used in the Little Bighorn battle. Whether it was a battle pick-up or used against the soldiers wasn't clear
It was a trapdoor 45-70 and had been embelished with tacks. They got permission to use it to test fire for a bullet sample. There is, evidently, a lot of archeological evidence of different cal and types of bullets from the site. Checking did indeed find a bullet from the site that matched that from the rifle. I don't remember what disposition was finally made of the rifle. To me, that was so interesting, I stil remember it.

 

[Savvy_Jack]

There are two good books I have on the topic I'd recommend if you have not read them:

Archaeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Bighorn, by Douglas Scott, et al and Documenting the Weapons Used at the Little Bighorn by Wendell Grangaard.

I agree, fascinating place. I drove way back to the Reno/Benteen sites the last time I was there, several years ago on the 4th of July, coincidentally. Had the whole place basically to myself.

Seeing the small cover the troopers tried to fashion with pocketknives and mess tins while being shot at, as well as the mass (estimated) number of fallen near the hill brought history to life in a way nothing else can.

Oh yeah, that is one the the few I have...

 

[ghbucky]

It was all political.

For the record, I wasn't talking about the decisions that lead up to the 7th cav being there, I was talking about the decision Custer made on that, specific day.

Years ago, there was a show on the History Channel or PBS

In the '20s some oral histories were recorded from Sioux who had been at the battle. In their accounting, Custer's attack was very quickly wiped out and the real battle was to the North (Benteen). Their account was largely discounted, because the famous "Custer's last stand" painting was more or less burned into the American psyche.

On my first visit, there were all these little white flags all over the place. I was told that they were surveying. Turns out that archeologists were doing the work that the PBS show later documented. As I recall, they were tracking specific firearms by the extractor marks on the cases. That research backed up the Sioux accounts of the battle, and they even tracked cavalry rifles that were fired at the site of Custer's charge that were used in positions to fire on Benteen, indicating that Sioux had picked up the cavalry rifles and used them to attack the other site.

Access to the Benteen and Reno positions weren't available then. Turns out that the road to access it crosses private land and they were later able to negotiate access.

Seeing the small cover the troopers tried to fashion with pocketknives and mess tins while being shot at, as well as the mass (estimated) number of fallen near the hill brought history to life in a way nothing else can.

The thing I carried away from the Reno/Benteen site was the water access. That in the middle of all that chaos and fire, there were troopers leaving their lines and going down that draw to get water.

 

[thallub]

"In the '20s some oral histories were recorded from Sioux who had been at the battle. In their accounting, Custer's attack was very quickly wiped out and the real battle was to the North (Benteen). Their account was largely discounted, because the famous "Custer's last stand" painting was more or less burned into the American psyche."

This^.

Custer's widow outlived her hubby by nearly 50 years. She traveled the country spreading the Custer myth.

30 years after the battle, Edward Curtis interviewed several Custer scouts. One scout claimed that Custer, on high ground, observed Reno's troops being pummeled and refused to intervene.

After the scouts had traced Custer’s route along the bluffs, they led Curtis to the two high, parallel ridges known as Weir Point, where the entire village would have been visible. There White Man Runs Him made a shocking revelation—that Custer had watched Reno’s entire fight in the valley below, including the major’s chaotic retreat. The scouts also claimed that Custer had dismissed their plea to assist Reno. “It is early yet and plenty of time. Let them fight. Our time will come.”

True West magazine came into possession of the Curtis papers and wrote this article.

https://truewestmagazine.com/custer-crows-curtis/

Native Americans accomplished in about 90 minutes what the Confederate army could not do.

 

[ghbucky]

When I posted this, I looked up some of those oral histories and I was struck by something I hadn't noticed before:

The Sioux had deliberately kept very tight lipped about what had happened because anyone that was found to have been there was very badly handled by the government (according to the Sioux), so they wouldn't tell their stories until there were only a very few left of them alive.

 

[reteach]

I have been interested in Custer (not a fan of Custer - just find his story interesting) and have studied the battle for a while. The best single book I have found, out of dozens, about the Battle of the Greasy Grass is Last Stand, by Nathaniel Philbrick. Very objective and uses primary accounts from both sides. He writes a little about the firearms used, but the book is more about the individuals involved. Highly recommended.

The main thing I took from this book, with all the detail he includes, was that this battle was, like any battle, confusing even to the participants. The eye witnesses can only tell about what happened before their eyes. The men with Crazy Horse saw a different battle than did the men with Gall. Reno and Benteen both hated Custer and had their reasons to blame him for everything that went wrong and to protect their own careers. And Custer also did a lot of things wrong. Fascinating story all around.

Savvy Jack, please keep us posted on your progress.

 

[SIGSHR]

Every battle is confusing, and the only survivor from Custer's immediate command was Myles Keogh's horse Comanche who never spoke about it. Custer fought a very poor battle, no proper recon, divided his forces, not mutually supporting, badly misunderestimated the enemy both in numbers and fighting ability. Then there all the stories about the Indians "pumping their Winchesters", etc.

 

[44 AMP]

A couple of things to keep in mind, first, Custer had a considerable ego, and every time he had met Indians in battle before, he had won and they had "run away".

He discounted (or ignored) what scouts told him about the enemy numbers, and did what had worked for him before. He fell victim to "Victory Disease".

History is full of that kind of thing, though none so famous in the US as Custer's last stand

 

[pwc]

Every battle is confusing, and the only survivor from Custer's immediate command was Myles Keogh's horse Comanche who never spoke about it. Custer fought

Comanche the horse, in the mid 60s, was on display at Kansas U, in Topeka. It had been "stuffed" an was in a big glass case; sadly it wasn't well preserved, there were places where the hair had raised and bare patches. I don't l know if it's still there or not.

 

[ghbucky]

Here's an interesting twist about the Sioux armaments:

https://www.historynet.com/survivor-frank-finkels-lasting-stand.htm

Post traderships were a scandalous monopoly; investors who never saw an Army post hired the actual traders to deal with soldiers and random Indians and expected a 50 percent kickback. The soldiers at the frontier posts paid outrageously inflated prices for everything from whiskey to canned peaches, while supplies meant for the Indians simply disappeared. The one thing that the Indians could depend on was a steady flow of 1866 16-shot Henry repeating rifles, now rendered surplus because of the later-model Winchester 1873 but still worth $75 on the day when the Indians received their cash annuities. Government policy kept the Indians hungry and better armed than the troopers sent to keep an eye on them, whose rifles were single-shot Springfields.

 

[105kw]

I don't know about surplus Henry or 1866 Winchester rifles. They were superceded by the 1873, but the 1866 stayed in production for quite a while. Neither rifle was ever issue in service.
It was illegal to sell any firearms to the Indians. Tribal Agents did supply hunting arms to their Tribes. 50-70 Sharps Carbines, and 50-70 Trapdoors were supplied, painted green for quick identification. 50-70 because the Army was using 45-70.
44 rimfire, and 50-70 were two of the most common brass found at Little Bighorn in the Indians positions.

 

[ghbucky]

44 rimfire, and 50-70 were two of the most common brass found at Little Bighorn in the Indians positions.

the 1866 henry was a .44 rimfire which would support the assertion in the article.

And interestingly, there were a handful of 50-70s carried by 7th cavalry. That was what Custer was carrying according to this:
https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/americas-first-fifty-the-50-70-centerfire/248503

 

[tdrizzle]

I've read that one or two fires in the area exposed a lot of material for archaeologists to work on.

I've also read that several Medals of Honor were awarded for those trying to get water during the fight.

I bought a copy of the 'Bring packs' letter as a magnet when I was there.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

the 1866 henry was a .44 rimfire which would support the assertion in the article.

The Henry rifle was an 1860, not 1866. It was chambered in .44 Rimfire. It was manufactured by the New Haven Arms Company.

The 1866 "Yellowboy" also fired the .44 Rimfire cartridge, but it wasn't a Henry -- it was a Winchester. Production of the 1860 Henry anded when Winchester brought out the 1866 Yellowboy -- which remedied several flaws in the 1860 Henry design.

It was 1860 Henrys that were used by the Indians at the Little Bighorn.

 

[4V50 Gary]

Along with what 44AMP said, Custer was also relying on his past experience at Wa████a (where Black Kettle's peaceful clan was massacred by the Seventh Cavalry). At Wa████a, the women and children were captured and having these hostages prevented the dog soldiers/warriors from pursuing. He wanted Reno to do the same.

Reno as we know met strong resistance and retreated. With no hostages, the warriors could turn their fury against Custer's column. According to some Indian accounts that I read, the Indians didn't know who led their attackers. They only knew that they were being attacked. They knew a long hair man in buckskin was leading the column across the river and they killed him dead right there. The column recovered that man's body and retreated.

ETA: interesting the bad language filter edited out the name of the battle. Here is the NPS link to it: https://www.nps.gov/waba/index.htm

I visited it years ago when I went to Oklahoma. I also visited the Sand Creek Massacre site where Chivington led his regiment to attack Black Kettle's encampment.

 

[Cirdan]

The Reno/Benteen site is SOUTH of Custer's last stand, not North.

I do think Custer made a lot of bad decisions that day. Dividing your forces in enemy territory without knowing the enemy's dispositions is number 1 on the hit parade. A totally uncoordinated attack with Reno approaching from the South long before Custer could ever get into position from the NE was not smart. The overall campaign design with three disconnected elements (Custer, Terry/Gibbons, and Crook) that were not in contact with each other was deeply flawed. This allowed the Lakota to defeat Crook (Rosebud) and Custer (LBH) separately, then escape before the Terry/Gibbons column arrived.

Having said all that, in almost all engagements with the Lakota in those days, the braves would fight a delaying action while the women and children broke camp and moved away. It wasn't totally unreasonable for Custer to assume the same would happen in this engagement. The differences were a) a much larger encampment, b) the Lakota were ready to fight, and c) the influence of Sitting Bull.