Firearm Sports Safety and Assault Rifle Registration Act of 200_

Quartus

New member
I'm very worried that a strictly principled bill wouldn't get passed


I'm sure it would not be. Now is not the time to try. Your approach is NOT 'better than nothing', it's damaging to our cause.

The reason I don't like the absolutist changes being made is that I think they reduce the chance of the bill being passed from infinitessimal to zero.


Tyme, you've missed my point, I fear. Having your bill even INTRODUCED is bad for our cause. You will have put the antis best arguments into the Federal record as being a given.
 

Quartus

New member
MicroBalrog said:
I rest my case.

Oh, thank you. Then Tyme and I can get back to having an intelligent discussion.


<sigh> I don't suppose it would do any good to point out that your comment is a non sequiter?


Nope.
 

MicroBalrog

New member
<sigh> I don't suppose it would do any good to point out that your comment is a non sequiter?

Actually, it is not. My point is you can't get very far on the Constitutional horse. You must find a way to convince Joe Citizen that he will benefit, personally from repeals. That's how they promoted carry reform.
 

Quartus

New member
Yes, but that's a separate discussion from the problems with this bill. There are other ways to do that without conceding the centrals points of the debate, which is what this bill does.
 

tyme

Administrator
Tyme, you've missed my point, I fear. Having your bill even INTRODUCED is bad for our cause. You will have put the antis best arguments into the Federal record as being a given.
I'm not missing your point at all. I understand that you want no references whatsoever to anything implying that the federal government has powers we all know it doesn't have, particularly to ensure people's safety. You also don't want any use of terms that cause confusion, which ends up preventing the usage of terms already written into the U.S. Code. The 60% of the population that doesn't know a machinegun from a water pistol isn't going to be any less confused if a bill like this uses different language.

All references to safety and the environment have been removed or altered. You can ignore section 500... I shrank it because it does nothing other than to eliminate duplication between the tax code and the criminal code. The only things you seem to have a problem with are the section descriptions, anyway.

(a) Section 922 is ammended by adding subsection (z):
"(z) With regard to all federal weapons laws and regulations contained in title 18, chapter 44 and title 26, chapter 53 of the United States Code,
(1) It is the intent of Congress that Article 3 courts apply the strict scrutiny standard to all such laws when determining their constitutionality.
(2) The Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction in all constitutional challenges to such federal laws."

No more dodging the issue by the Supreme Court. But I suspect you and some other people are going to complain that not only is this not the time to suggest legislation in Congress, but it's also not the time to force the Supreme Court's hand. Well, I don't have the luxury of being immortal, so I'd rather force someone somewhere to make a decision and then go from there.

If you don't think that draft is acceptable, I'm not sure what else to offer aside from this:
Section 100
(a) title 18, chapter 44 is repealed in its entirety
(b) title 26, chapter 53 is repealed in its entirety
Which is short, simple, pure, and also guaranteed not to pass in any Congress during my lifetime.

I'm not suggesting that we try to introduce any legislation before the election. I'm only interested in ideas of what should and shouldn't be in such a bill, and strategies for how to get a bill introduced into Congress.
 

Quartus

New member
If you don't think that draft is acceptable, I'm not sure what else to offer aside from this:

Section 100
(a) title 18, chapter 44 is repealed in its entirety
(b) title 26, chapter 53 is repealed in its entirety


I like it! :D


Seriously, I do think this merits more discussion, but I'm swamped right now. I'll get back to you, maybe this evening...
 

Quartus

New member
Better. You haven't given away the farm that I can see, with one possible exception. (see below)

There are some nits I could pick (why 3 inches for knives? Why not 3 1/2?) but that's not important. No bill like this will be perfect, and I'm NOT an absolutist in the sense that I will tolerate no bill that is not 100% perfect and restores the 2A to its original intent in one move. That ain't gonna happen. I've long seen - and preached - the power of doing things incrementally, and I think that's the only way we will see progress. It's how the left got as far as they have, and it will work for us, too.

There are some things here that I don't like, but could let pass for now. For example, I don't see why we need ANY Federal definition of the miltia - that's for the states to decide at most. Better it be left open, IMO. And I don't like the reference to "environmentally friendly". It almost implies that such concerns are the Fed.gov's business. But as I said, I can let some things like that go for now in the interest of incremental gains.

That said, I'm not clear on one section:

Section 300 – For protection of schools and citizens in States not yet allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons, and to promote the privacy rights of law-abiding citizens.

(a) It is the intent of the Legislature to proscribe restrictions on lawful carry of weapons by law-abiding citizens, under the authority of the 2nd Amendment, by enjoining State laws prohibiting such carry as violative of the 2nd Amendment as incorporated under the 14th Amendment, and to draw additional authority from the interstate commerce and general welfare clauses of the Constitution.

(b) In section 922 of title 18, United States Code, subsection 922 (o) is added as follows. It is the intent of Congress that section (o) subsection (2) below specifically allow legislation such as 18 U.S.C. 930 (g), which allows possession of certain knives in federal buildings.

'(o) To eliminate confusing, contradictory, and unconstitutional weapons laws and to prevent confusion regarding weapon carry in the States and territories of the United States, which impedes inter-state commerce and makes criminals out of well-meaning travelers,

(1) Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, any person not prohibited by federal law from purchasing a firearm in the State of his or her residence shall not be prohibited or required to obtain a license or permit in order to own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, loan, rent, otherwise transfer, or carry a firearm or other weapon in or affecting interstate commerce, on any public or private property which is open to the public and not secured effectively with a metal detector at each entrance, secured windows and roofs, and adequately trained, armed security guard(s), meeting standards that the United States Attorney General may through regulation prescribe.

(2) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed to prohibit laws allowing certain weapons in buildings open to the public that do have metal detectors and secured windows and roofs.

(3) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed to nullify the right of owners of private homes and buildings not open to the public from asking armed citizens to leave such private property.



I see three possible problems in this section:


1. Is this about FEDERAL buildings? If so, fine, I guess. But if that's not spelled out explicitly, it actually REMOVES some freedoms in some states. In Utah, for example, there's a fight going on about CCW in universities. State law allows it, but if your bill is left this way, it could trump that state law.


2. This DOES have the effect of recognizing the much-too-broad interpretation of the interstate commerce clause. That has been the cause of a TON of usurpation of authority by the Federal government, and I think we have to be very careful not to support its continued abuse.

3. The part in bold is clear as mud to me. If you are saying that you are drawing on the interstate commerce clause and the "general welfare" clause for your authority for this, I have a big problem with it.

I've already mentioned the commerce clause, so I'll just point out the problem with the "general welfare" clause.

There isn't one. There is a mention of that in the preamble, but the preamble is NOT part of the Constitution any more than a foreward is part of a story. It is an introduction, but does NOT have the force of law.

It IS a favorite of the leftists, who delight to quote it as trumping any restrictions on Federal authority. It's a Very Bad Thing, and we should NOT give it any credence.


But we're making progress!
 

Quartus

New member
Oh, yeah. THIS:

No more dodging the issue by the Supreme Court. But I suspect you and some other people are going to complain that not only is this not the time to suggest legislation in Congress, but it's also not the time to force the Supreme Court's hand. Well, I don't have the luxury of being immortal, so I'd rather force someone somewhere to make a decision and then go from there.


You don't force an enemy's hand when he's holding a .45 to your head with the hammer back and the safety off. That's where we are with the current SCOTUS. McCain-Feingold should have made that very clear. This court is NOT going to rule on the side of law. They are going to rule on the side of Federal power. Well, when it leans to the left, at least. Take a look at their rulings over the last few years. Forcing this Court to rule on the 2A is suicide. They'll issue a clear ruling (with Thomas & Scalia dissenting, of course) that the 2A is NOT an individual right.


Then what? Will you get any Federal gun laws repealed then? Will you get any state gun laws repealed?

Do you really think we could get a NEW Second Amendment passed that would safeguard our rights?

The soap box, the ballot box, and the jury box will be rendered irrelevant, and we will be left with only the cartridge box.


I don't want that.

Sometimes you gotta know when to go slow. We're advancing right now. Slowly, but we're advancing.

Don't break it.
 

MicroBalrog

New member
Article 1 said:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Not part of preamble, that.

I agree that it has been abused, just correcting your error.
 

LAK

Moderator
MicroBalrog
Frankly, not going to happen.

It can happen if enough people realise the root of the problem and attack it instead of playing on the defensive and pandering to dangerous ideas. Otherwise we may as well all give up and just join the other side for they are sure to win.

Me? I don't care what justification is provided, as long as the dumb law is dead.

This simply sets the stage for a continuing defensive strategy that is at any time subject to be overturned when similar subjective arguements are in their favor.
 

tyme

Administrator
1. The entire point is to trump state law, or more accurately, to prevent states from enacting laws that restrict gun possession, carry, and transfer. States can still pass laws saying "nobody shall prohibit ccw." All the section you quoted does is prevent anyone from banning guns unless they put up metal detectors and have armed guards. I don't like that exception either

2+3. The interstate commerce clause reference is a stopgap. It (hopefully) prevents the law from being declared unconstitutional even if the SCOTUS refuses to accept that Congress can enact it on the authority of the 2nd and 14th amendments. Remember what happened in U.S. vs Lopez and what Congress did to get around the SCOTUS ruling?

The federal building blade limit nonsense is gone, and rationale for its removal has been added.
You don't force an enemy's hand when he's holding a .45 to your head with the hammer back and the safety off. That's where we are with the current SCOTUS. McCain-Feingold should have made that very clear. This court is NOT going to rule on the side of law. They are going to rule on the side of Federal power. Well, when it leans to the left, at least. Take a look at their rulings over the last few years. Forcing this Court to rule on the 2A is suicide.
I think it's the other way around. The gun (metaphorically) is pointed at the Supreme Court justices. Forcing them to take a gun case will determine which of them want to live honorably, and which dishonorably.

If they rule the wrong way, so what? It's very doubtful they'd rule "all guns can be banned," so the situation wouldn't be much worse than it is today.

I don't have all the time in the world. Neither does the supreme court. They need to make a decision and live with the consequences.

Let's go back to that complete repeal of 18 USC chapter 44 and 26 USC chapter 53. Is there a chance of getting that slipped into some unrelated bill?
 

Joseph

New member
I used to be a reasonable kind-of-guy. Let's all work together, let's talk things out. I've finally come to the point where there is no reasonable about this issue. You give 'em an inch, they take two miles, and call us terrorists to boot. Write anything down and that is the place they start to restrict rights, moving towards total control.

Don't willingly give an inch, not a millimeter. Besides, it's already written down: The 2nd.
 

Quartus

New member
Microbalrog said:
Article 1, Section 8
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;



Not part of preamble, that.

I agree that it has been abused, just correcting your error.

Thank you! It's been too long since I read through it! Time to do it again.
 

Quartus

New member
1. The entire point is to trump state law, or more accurately, to prevent states from enacting laws that restrict gun possession, carry, and transfer. States can still pass laws saying "nobody shall prohibit ccw." ...

2+3. The interstate commerce clause reference is a stopgap. ....

A very dangerous stopgap. It's like using a flamethrower in an ammo dump. The interstate commerce clause is THE most abused part of the Constitution. Perpetuating that abuse is a mistake.


The federal building blade limit nonsense is gone, and rationale for its removal has been added.


Ahhhhh! Rather like spiking a drink - you intend the full effect to be felt later. That can be a VERY effective strategy - putting something into law which provides a basis for later action!
beer2.gif



That's EXACTLY what's I've been pointing out is the problem with most of this bill!
awcrap.gif
It works both ways!

You don't force an enemy's hand when he's holding a .45 to your head with the hammer back and the safety off. That's where we are with the current SCOTUS. McCain-Feingold should have made that very clear. This court is NOT going to rule on the side of law. They are going to rule on the side of Federal power. Well, when it leans to the left, at least. Take a look at their rulings over the last few years. Forcing this Court to rule on the 2A is suicide.

I think it's the other way around. The gun (metaphorically) is pointed at the Supreme Court justices. Forcing them to take a gun case will determine which of them want to live honorably, and which dishonorably.

If they rule the wrong way, so what? It's very doubtful they'd rule "all guns can be banned," so the situation wouldn't be much worse than it is today.

Sir Tyme, you couldn't be more wrong. THEY are holding the power, not we. It's not supposed to be that way, but it is. If they rule that the 2A is NOT an individual right (which the present court WILL), we have lost EVERYTHING. You will see gun bans and outright confiscation within one year of that ruling, and we will have nothing left but armed resistance. Only in those few states which have a similar safeguard in their state Constitution will there be any hope. Even that will be quickly extinguished by Federal laws banning the manufacture or importation of guns, or at the very least, the importation or interstate transportation of guns. (Oh, that "commerce" clause again!)

I don't have all the time in the world. Neither does the supreme court. They need to make a decision and live with the consequences.


The consequences for them will be to continue to live a very comfortable life and to continue to destroy this country with impunity - greater impunity than before, actually.

The consequences for us will be our complete loss of freedom, and I don't just mean guns.

Forcing their hand may seem to be a dramatic and principled move, but it's really just plain suicide. No thank you!

Let's go back to that complete repeal of 18 USC chapter 44 and 26 USC chapter 53. Is there a chance of getting that slipped into some unrelated bill?


Sneaky, eh? I like sneaky. Sneaky is good! :D Yeah, I'd say there's a slim chance. The worst I see happening with that is that we get caught, and the antis scream bloody murder. It will be some negative PR, but I don't think it would do lasting damage. Might be worth a shot. If we win, when the antis find out later, they will have to fight to get those bills passed again, and we'll have a chance to fight them. I think they'll have the upper hand in that fight because they'll be able to cry FOUL! and that will sway a lot of the mushy middle, but it might be a chance worth taking.


Actually, if you break this up into little chunks and slip in a bit here and a bit there, you might actually do some good.


Incrementalism works.



Break's over! Back to work!
 

tyme

Administrator
Perpetuating that abuse is a mistake.
Perpetuating that abuse is probably the only way to prevent the law from being summarily tossed out by the first federal court that reviews it, under precedent from U.S. vs Lopez ironically enough.

Rather than explicitly stating that the legislation relies on the interstate commerce clause, there are now two parallel sections, identical except one relies on the interstate commerce clause and one doesn't.

I think that's a legislative no-no, but if the no-interstate-commerce-clause version were found to be unconstitutional, the corrupt one might still apply.
 

tyme

Administrator
Completely reorganized so it's almost readable...

http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/pl/fa-draft6.html

Are there any other small sections of federal weapons law that anyone really hates, above and beyond the rest?

The summary is not part of the bill, it's just included to give a one-page overview. There will be a one-page summary of reasons for the changes, too.

If anyone has arguments for any of the changes, particularly the gun-free school zone act and lautenberg amendment, aside from the obvious federalism and due process arguments, please share them.
 

tyme

Administrator
bump. Quartus, hold your nose if you read the summary part at the top. You won't like it.

The text of the bill may be gobblygook even with the short descriptions. However, if anyone catches factual errors in the summary section at the top, please let me know. Suggestions for non-factual changes to the summary section are welcome.

Can anyone confirm or deny that altering 925(d)(3) will invalidate Bush Sr.'s executive order banning non-sporting semi-auto "assault weapons"? I think it might, but I've never been able to find the text of Bush's EO so I have no clear understanding of what it did.
 

gewehr44

New member
Eliminating the "sporting" requirement of GCA '68 would really put a crimp in a lot of anti laws. Here's the info I dug up on the '89 Bush Executive order:

Executive Order 12680
Administration of foreign assistance and related functions and arms export controls

* Signed: July 5, 1989
* Federal Register page and date: 54 FR 28995; July 10, 1989
* Amends: EO 11958, January 18, 1977; EO 12163, September 29, 1979

http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/executive_orders/1989_bush.html

According to the page at the link below, it appears that EO's prior to '93 are only available in print.

http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/executive_orders/about_executive_orders.html
 
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