Mike Irwin
Staff
Excellent. I should charge a finder's fee! 
Finally shot that old can of 2400
- Thread starter spacecoast
- Start date
Mike Irwin
Staff
"1932 to be exact."
I'm finding dates all over the place in different literature, from 1928 to 1934. The only date I've not come across is 1931.
But, I sort of doubt an introduction date any later than 1930. The .22 Hornet was introduced publicly in 1930, to replace the older .22 Winchester Center Fire. Winchester and Alliant worked closely together to develop what would become 2400 as there were no truly suitable powders for such a cartridge at that time.
I sort of doubt that 2400 is any hotter or colder than it's ever been -- but pressure testing equipment is more accurate than it's ever been, and lawyers are a lot more aggressive.
What most people don't know is that 2400, Unique, Bullseye, and several other powders made by Hercules/Alliant are the exact same powder base, all stemming from the original Infaliable shotshell powder of the late 1880s.
The differences between the powders are in the finishing -- the size of the flake, the thickness, and the deterrent coatings.
I'm finding dates all over the place in different literature, from 1928 to 1934. The only date I've not come across is 1931.
But, I sort of doubt an introduction date any later than 1930. The .22 Hornet was introduced publicly in 1930, to replace the older .22 Winchester Center Fire. Winchester and Alliant worked closely together to develop what would become 2400 as there were no truly suitable powders for such a cartridge at that time.
I sort of doubt that 2400 is any hotter or colder than it's ever been -- but pressure testing equipment is more accurate than it's ever been, and lawyers are a lot more aggressive.
What most people don't know is that 2400, Unique, Bullseye, and several other powders made by Hercules/Alliant are the exact same powder base, all stemming from the original Infaliable shotshell powder of the late 1880s.
The differences between the powders are in the finishing -- the size of the flake, the thickness, and the deterrent coatings.
According to Phil Sharpe's "Complete Guide to Handloading", it was introduced in 1932 and not released as a canister powder to handloaders until 1933. Being instrumental in the .357's development, he probably knew a thing or two about the premier magnum pistol powder of the era.
I sort of doubt that John Taffin and Brian Pearce would've tested and written about it if there weren't some merit. Either way, half a grain less than Keith's .44Spl load yields the same velocity.
Mike Irwin
Staff
I've found errors in Sharpe's materials before, so I wouldn't go 100% with him, but that's another piece of the puzzle.
Regarding Taffin and Pearce, I'm not familiar with their material on the subject.
But, if you look at the general trend for almost all powders over the last 50 to 75 years, those that are still with us have pretty universally trended downwards in their loading data, with most of that coming in the last 25 years.
Regarding Taffin and Pearce, I'm not familiar with their material on the subject.
But, if you look at the general trend for almost all powders over the last 50 to 75 years, those that are still with us have pretty universally trended downwards in their loading data, with most of that coming in the last 25 years.
Mike Irwin
Staff
I just flipped off a note to Alliant asking if they have any data in their archives as to when 2400 was first used to load commercial ammunition, and when it was first available as a canister powder.
In reality, the exact date doesn't much matter for the purposes of this thread other than as "hey, that's neat information."
In reality, the exact date doesn't much matter for the purposes of this thread other than as "hey, that's neat information."
Airman Basic
New member
Seems I read somewhere that 2400 was developed and named for it's ability to drive 22 Hornet bullets at 2400 fps.
spacecoast
New member
Here are the pics from that ad, which I received in good shape today. No doubt, my can is a dead ringer for the one in this ad from the American Rifleman, July 1952:
Note the Hercules Powder Company, "Explosives Department".
Thanks again Mike!
No doubt, my can is a dead ringer for the one in this ad from the American Rifleman, July 1952:
Thanks again Mike!
spacecoast
New member
Don, I think it was $9.20 including shipping.
Spot on about the container, you want a Powder one.
I know they say not to, but what I am doing is cutting the labels off my current containers, put a sticking label on it and use them for the olde powders I have taken out of cans (I got a mixed box a while back as well as some of my old ones I consolidated. )
As always, regardless of what the container says, if contents do not look like what they are find out why (no its not foolproof but safety is many layers of dense and thats another one)
And congratulations on a well considered approach for test and use. I think like most things if we use good judgment and your conservative approach we can do a trial like that and confirm ok or no its acting odd and stop.
I know they say not to, but what I am doing is cutting the labels off my current containers, put a sticking label on it and use them for the olde powders I have taken out of cans (I got a mixed box a while back as well as some of my old ones I consolidated. )
As always, regardless of what the container says, if contents do not look like what they are find out why (no its not foolproof but safety is many layers of dense and thats another one)
And congratulations on a well considered approach for test and use. I think like most things if we use good judgment and your conservative approach we can do a trial like that and confirm ok or no its acting odd and stop.
Hercules goes back as far as the 20's I Know, .. I can remember my Dad telling me stories of his summers spent with G-Paw digging up Lighter-Pine stumps and taking them to The Hercules Plant in Hattiesburg to sale, and G-Paw also did that as a kid too.
RC20,
I Poured the last of my Keg into 1 pounders and made labels too
.
RC20,
I Poured the last of my Keg into 1 pounders and made labels too
.
Last edited:
Mike Irwin
Staff
Hercules goes back a lot farther than the 1920s.
It was a joint venture by Du Pont and Laflin & Rand powder companies (part of the later powder trust).
Its original purpose was to manufacture dynamite.
Right before World War I the powder trusts were broken up, and the Hercules Powder Company, making smokeless powder, was formed.
Speaking of Hercules and 2400, I heard back from Alliant this afternoon regarding the commercial introduction of 2400 as a canister powder. They confirmed an introduction of 1932.
It was a joint venture by Du Pont and Laflin & Rand powder companies (part of the later powder trust).
Its original purpose was to manufacture dynamite.
Right before World War I the powder trusts were broken up, and the Hercules Powder Company, making smokeless powder, was formed.
Speaking of Hercules and 2400, I heard back from Alliant this afternoon regarding the commercial introduction of 2400 as a canister powder. They confirmed an introduction of 1932.
Mike Irwin
Staff
You know, I have a bunch of old Rifleman magazines and other gun magazines from the 1950s and 1960s.
I'm going to have to dig them out and see what advertisements they have for powder.
At Christmas I brought home a Hercules dynamite box that's been in the family since my Great-Grandfather brought it home from the railroad.
I'm going to have to dig them out and see what advertisements they have for powder.
At Christmas I brought home a Hercules dynamite box that's been in the family since my Great-Grandfather brought it home from the railroad.
Mike Irwin
Staff
I need to figure out how to clean it. It's quite dirty. The paint in the logos is still in good shape, but it's just covered with 100 years of dirt and grime.
spacecoast
New member
Finally had a chance to shoot some upscale loads using powder from the 1950s-era can of 2400.
I was VERY impressed with both loads - 13.1 grains pushing a 158 gr. TMJ (.357 mag) and 17.0 grains pushing a 240 gr. JHP (.44 mag) were both very accurate and comfortable to shoot. The pic below is DA at 17 yards with one cylinder from my 686. No chrony to measure velocity, unfortunately, and these are a bit under max. loads, but I'm sure they were both in the range of 1200 fps or higher.
I also found another pretty old can of 2400 - this one empty. It's pictured below on the right. I'm guessing late 60s or 70s for this one's vintage.
I was VERY impressed with both loads - 13.1 grains pushing a 158 gr. TMJ (.357 mag) and 17.0 grains pushing a 240 gr. JHP (.44 mag) were both very accurate and comfortable to shoot. The pic below is DA at 17 yards with one cylinder from my 686. No chrony to measure velocity, unfortunately, and these are a bit under max. loads, but I'm sure they were both in the range of 1200 fps or higher.
I also found another pretty old can of 2400 - this one empty. It's pictured below on the right. I'm guessing late 60s or 70s for this one's vintage.
Mike Irwin
Staff
The all-metal "pop top" can with lithgraphed paint labels replaced the cardboard "pour spout" can probably in the late 1950s or early 1960s and stuck around until sometime in the late 1960s or early 1970s.
OK, this is supposedly a reprint of a 1970 Hercules catalog, and shows the pop tops still being offered.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hercules-Po...493016?pt=Vintage_Hunting&hash=item5654e52d98
The "pop top" cans are, quite frankly, a serious pain in the ass to open and close (especially to close), and from what I've heard they were not particularly popular with reloaders.
The pop top cans were replaced with square cardboard containers with metal ends and a screw lid, and in the late 1970s/early 1980s were replaced with the round cardboard container with metal ends and an integral collapsable plastic pour spout (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-199...551343?pt=Vintage_Hunting&hash=item35d946a12f)
Speaking of advetisements, this Stoeger one had me going...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-HERCUL...792618?pt=Vintage_Hunting&hash=item56673632aa
It's listed as a 1955 ad for Hercules powders, but the cans are all wrong...
Then at the bottom I noticed "Not Available for the Duration."
Hum... the duration of what... Well, the duration of World War II, obviously!
OK, this is supposedly a reprint of a 1970 Hercules catalog, and shows the pop tops still being offered.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hercules-Po...493016?pt=Vintage_Hunting&hash=item5654e52d98
The "pop top" cans are, quite frankly, a serious pain in the ass to open and close (especially to close), and from what I've heard they were not particularly popular with reloaders.
The pop top cans were replaced with square cardboard containers with metal ends and a screw lid, and in the late 1970s/early 1980s were replaced with the round cardboard container with metal ends and an integral collapsable plastic pour spout (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-199...551343?pt=Vintage_Hunting&hash=item35d946a12f)
Speaking of advetisements, this Stoeger one had me going...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-HERCUL...792618?pt=Vintage_Hunting&hash=item56673632aa
It's listed as a 1955 ad for Hercules powders, but the cans are all wrong...
Then at the bottom I noticed "Not Available for the Duration."
Hum... the duration of what... Well, the duration of World War II, obviously!
spacecoast
New member
Great info Mike, thanks. And good catch on that Stoeger ad...
Mike Irwin
Staff
You know what... I think I've made a mistake...
I said this...
"The pop top cans were replaced with square cardboard containers with metal ends and a screw lid..."
I'm now thinking that that is totally incorrect.
Hodgdon used those square containers (and not a screw lid, but a friction fit plug lid of either metal or plastic).
They apparently weren't too popular with shooters, as they only seem to have been used for a couple of years and they had a reputation for being difficult to pour from.
I don't think Hercules ever used anything like that; I think they went directly from the pop top can to the round cardboard tube container.
I said this...
"The pop top cans were replaced with square cardboard containers with metal ends and a screw lid..."
I'm now thinking that that is totally incorrect.
Hodgdon used those square containers (and not a screw lid, but a friction fit plug lid of either metal or plastic).
They apparently weren't too popular with shooters, as they only seem to have been used for a couple of years and they had a reputation for being difficult to pour from.
I don't think Hercules ever used anything like that; I think they went directly from the pop top can to the round cardboard tube container.