Finally got some time with a R51

[HKFan9]

I got to play with an R51 a customer had shipped in to us that he purchased off Gunbroker. There was a lot of buzz about it so a few of us were eager to check it out.

My initial thoughts was that it is bigger and heavier than I anticipated. Still a good size, and the weight isn't bad, but seemed smaller in pics I viewed. Right away I noticed the grip and its safety. The grip is thin but seems to feel awkward in the hand. I DO actually like grip safeties being a big 1911 fan, and owning a XDM and XDS as well. However with a natural grip for me, thumbs forward, I could not engage their grip safety well. I would have to squeeze tighter than normal to get the grip safety to engage. Not uncomfortably tight, but enough to make me cautious of using it as a defensive carry gun.

The mag release is probably the only feature I really liked on the firearm admittedly. It is sunken in, which is nice on a carry firearm so you don't drop the mag accidentally. It is ambidextrous so it reminded me of some of my HK's where I could use my trigger finger to drop the mag.

The slide was rough and gritty. Not smooth at all, seemed to have a hang point in the middle of the stroke. This was rather disappointing as I have read it is a smooth operating firearm. We cleaned any factory grease out and re-lubed it for the customer, but still felt gritty with a hang point. He did not like this, however it could smooth out with shooting... maybe

The trigger was by far the biggest disappointment, which seems odd as to all the hype around it. It is squishy, and a semi unpredictable wall... but the WORST part about it, there is zero reset feel. There was no positive reset to be seen or heard or felt. A few of our guys actually wanted to order one of these firearms until they got to playing around with it, and even if you got past all the other short comings, the trigger kinda killed it.

Seeing as Remington's admitted purpose bringing this gun to market was to rebrand themselves as a handgun company. I think they sort of missed the mark. I am sure people will buy them, I am sure people will say they are the best thing ever since sliced bread, but I was disappointed in it after handling it. Hopefully shooting one may change that, but I have not been given the opportunity yet.

 

[Bentonville]

I am an HK fan, too, HKFan9. I appreciate your perspective. I know many of us are just hoping to read more positives than negatives about the Remington on these forums so we will have a reason to buy a new pistol. Just curious; was the owner of the pistol present when you were checking it out?
Thank again for the insight.

 

[HKFan9]

He was the one who asked us to field strip and clean it, and lube it hoping it would be smoother.

I am hoping this was a poor example of one, but I feel it probably isn't. The trigger reminded me of a Hi-point no lie. More good guns out there means more options for us to play with, however I don't think this one is for me.

 

[chris in va]

Good to know. Hands-on reports are finally trickling in.

 

[Bentonville]

HKFan9, you have certainly given me pause to rethink my next purchase. I really appreciate your time.

 

[HKFan9]

Just make sure you take your time with one before paying for it. I was intrigued but did not like it once spending some time with one. I get this opportunity more so than most folks due to my job. I see it all too many times, something seems amazing on paper, people are eager, do the paperwork, pay and leave. Then a few weeks later they are screaming at me when they bring it back to trade in and I offer them about half of what they paid for it new.

 

[1goodshot]

The one I played with at the gun show today was the same way.

 

[Sevens]

but the WORST part about it, there is zero reset feel. There was no positive reset to be seen or heard or felt.

This has been my most passionate complaint about the Browning Hi-Power, and always has. And to be honest, I have a good solid half-dozen complaints about the Hi-Power, but nothing drives me further up the wall than it's outrageously vague trigger reset. Can't "feel" it, can't "hear" it, can't get on board with it. And perhaps annoying me almost nearly as much is that I simply don't hear folks talk about it very often.

To be fair, I don't ever chase down discussions on the Hi-Power, but I wonder how often it comes up. Trigger reset is big to me, and while we're at it, trigger over travel is right the heck up there, also.

Sorry if I've drifted directly off-topic. To the subject, I hear the observations and it sounds like good information. One thing my experience has taught me (more than a couple times...) is that first impressions quite often do not tell the tale when it comes to handguns. I have no interest in the this new ugly-duck Remington R51, but I can say that if I was hyped up on it before hand (I wasn't), I would still want to put some 300 rounds down range (minimum) before I gave up on the project.

Even so, it's a good hands-on observation, and this particular complaint hits close to home for me. I just loathe a vague trigger reset.

 

[HKFan9]

I haven't given up on it.... I just wanted to state my hands on experience with the first one I was able to. I was not able to fire it, however I get chances to go shoot with company reps sometimes quite often, last time Remington guys had their 1911's, Para's 1911's and their Versa-max's to play with. I am sure next time I see them they will have one of these and I can shoot it. Or if someone shows up at the range one day with one. I try to at least shoot a gun before I say I absolutely hate it.

Admittedly when I first held a FNH Five-Seven I thought rather off about it, but shooting it I fell in love and I now own one.

 

[bedbugbilly]

Good to read a "first hand impression" of the R51. When I first saw that they were going to come out with this handgun, I got excited . . . as the photos of it made it look like something I might like. I haven't run across any in any gun shops and was wondering when they were going to start showing up.

I'm sure it will be like many makes/models that come out and it will take them time to work the "bugs" out of them. However, I view the R51 as Remingtons approach to getting in to more handguns and to have these "problems" on one that is probably "typical" . . . well, it is just a shame that more effort wasn't put in to the quality/development of it so that it hit the shelves as a "good production gun".

I'm not "bad mouthing it" . . . and I hope that they can get this model so that the production guns don't have the issues you talked about. I'd buy one in a heartbeat (and was planning to) but not if there are slide issues and especially trigger issues. I think the grip safety would probably be less of a worry once you got used to it? I find it interesting in reading the initial reviews of those sent out for testing and write ups that seemed to be generally liked. Unfortunately, if they don't get their act together so that the handguns off the line don't have some of the issues mentioned . . . it just might kill the R51 . . . and I hope that doesn't happen. But, there are a lot of good 9mm handguns already on the market to compete with. Let's hope that Remington "gets on it" and makes sure that what is leaving the factory isn't going to be a disappointment to those that buy 'em.

Thanks for the nice write up . . . please keep us posted on your thoughts if you have a chance to handle other R51s.

 

[marine6680]

Its a rough feeling pistol when racking the slide...

I didn't find a problem with the grip or engaging the safety though. Nor a problem with the edge of the frame seeming like it would bite the hand in recoil.



But it is a gun that seems like it definitely needs a break in, because it feels like it cycles rough out of the box. The sticky point in the middle of the slide movement is probably the point where the breech block cams up in the slide and up over the breech stop.

 

[barnbwt]

Color me confused: when did trigger reset become more important than trigger pull? I'm not saying the R51 does either well, but I've seen more criticism of trigger reset specific to the R51 than any other gun up to this point, and by several orders of magnitude. Just seems a weirdly universal critique that I haven't seen pointed out good or bad on other designs until now

TCB

 

[TailGator]

I have heard and read similar reports from other people with a good bit of experience and taste regarding handguns. Seems like a good idea that was not executed well. A shame, really. I was feeling a bit of interest in the pistol until the objective hands-on reports starting coming in.

 

[HKFan9]

When you learn and train on a handgun for defensive purposes... Trigger resets become just as important if not more important than a trigger pull. Generally speaking I am not going to really want the 2lbs trigger that one of my STI 1911s has for a duty/defensive gun. Carry guns generally have heavier triggers, and it is important to learn and use them properly. A key to shooting fast as well as keeping accuracy is firing from the reset. This is pretty much impossible to do with the R51 so you will not have good luck with controlled doubles or anything else regarding multiple rounds in rapid succession. Real life is not a movie where you shoot someone and they drop dead, generally you will fire more rounds. Since the R51 IS and WAS designed as a CCW defensive handgun, I find it as a huge flaw there is no tell tale reset. You should be asking yourself why trigger reset isn't a major concern of yours especially after realizing a bunch of other people are also complaining about it.

Glock is usually always gushed about for its positive reset along with 1911's where people generally think MP and XDM are somewhat squishy. Sig sells a $200 SRT (short reset trigger) trigger option in their elite models. I don't know how you failed to take notice of other notions of resets.

The sad truth is MOST people buy a gun for defense but I doubt most of them take training or practice enough to be proficient in using it. I get asked everyday by customers for a cheap gun they can load and keep in a drawer in their home.

 

[wizrd]

The first incarnation of a newly designed firearm is always the 'beta testing' - never buy the first issue, all the bugs aren't worked out yet. Just saying.

 

[marine6680]

I'm not convinced on the riding the reset thing...


I have no issues with controlled pairs. I don't actively shoot from the reset.

Maybe I am subconsciously.

 

[barnbwt]

It appears we finally have images of the internal parts of the gun, what, 3 weeks into its release? A very good review by a Mr. RyeOnHam on Youtube contains close up photos --in focus-- of the naughty bits inside the R51, and even goes so far as to compare them to the original R51s expensive and comparatively weak versions. You'll at least feel better about Rem's design team after seeing the changes that were made; they are definitely improvements rather than cost cutting measures.

Anywho, gaze upon the mysterious Sasquatch, and be 'amazed' (if the marked screenshots of RyeOnHam's excellent youtube video are not cool with anyone, I will take down the links; but the world needs to see this! )

The most elusive of all small game; the Remington R51 breech block --in focus, no less. The camming surfaces being on the outside instead of inside a milled pocket readily show how Remington was able to make the machining cost marketable. What 308 select fire rifle does this bolt remind you of?

Check it out, guys --the gun's a Pocket FAL! I did not realize the original Pedersen Block design was so different from the R51; it was hollowed out so the camming piece on the slide went through the middle, like a BREN's bolt carrier. The R51 has the camming pieces (plural) milled in the sides of the slide so the bolt merely narrows at that spot; meaning a much much lower stress concentration in the bolt body. The meat behind the locking recess in the bolt is much better, too. No 1/8" thick shear-critical barrel-rib locking surfaces here, fellas!

Any machinists out there? Considering the barrel lug stuff is not critical for timing/safety on this design, this barrel looks mad simple. Looks like a 1.125" blank would be plenty, so no need for super huge blanks to carve the feed ramp/lug out of. I fully expect modders to make barrels in new lengths and calibers having seen how simple this area is. The reviewer himself expressed a 'potential' of maybe, just maybe getting 50GAP to work in the factory magazines

Close of view of the slime, er, slide. Whatever that funk is, you can see there is quite a lot of complex milling inside there compared to a 1911 which is mostly just slot cuts. That said, it actually looks quite well done in the video (there's more video with the grease wiped off) with the specific exception of some large relief cuts on the sides of the slide which keep it from contacting the side faces of the breech block; those look pretty rough, and while not affecting operation, are very visible when the slide is racked back.

Looking at the rough size of the locking surface (~1/8" x .5"), if a steel insert were used as the locking shoulder in the frame, I would expect the gun's lockup to be capable of handling magnum level bolt thrust. Which is why I have little doubt that hardened aluminum with that much surface area would be fine for mere 9mm --it may limit the moves up to higher power rounds like 40S&W or 45ACP with their higher bolt thrust values. Kinda makes me wonder if galling is the only real reason you couldn't use aluminum for the slide, as well?

One more thing I took from the video; it sounds like everything from the trigger, to the balance, to the recoil level, to the recoil impulse, to the grip shape and frame contour, to the take down are markedly different from Glocks and the many clones which have swept the market for the last decade or two. That suggests to me the need for those who prefer that platform to perhaps see if their criticism could be more objective (for example; I always thought a very positive trigger reset was an artifact of popular partial-cock striker systems, which is why it isn't very prominent in any of my hammer-fired pistols or revolvers)

Link to the original video review (get a snack; it's 38min long, but pretty good)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47ruE_UHyvs&list=UUOvuoPY-nG-978Nmksc3-eQ&feature=share&index=8

TCB

 

[barnbwt]

Yeah, that trigger reset looks "surmountable" to say the least. The way the gun appears to handle regular vs. +P loads in the several slo-mo videos I've seen looks downright magical (which is why I don't quite believe it yet), and there is a distinctly common refrain of "surprisingly low recoil" from each and every shooting review so far. Even if they get their hand bit, somehow

TCB

 

[MJFlores]

This is why I'm hesitant about ordering a gun and using another place to transfer it....my new gun shouldn't be "played" with. Open it to check the serial number for the paper work but otherwise leave it alone. Even if the customer gave permission ahead of time...it should be left boxed until they arrive and do the initial inspection.

 

[Bentonville]

+1 MJFlores. I always give instructions that the store owner be the one to check in my gun and for him to only record numbers. I would like to check for function and finish when I pick it up in his presence.