Finally arrived: S&W Pre-M36 Chief's Special
- Thread starter Jetfire
- Start date
pre-model 36 chiefs special
I know this is a old post,but I wanted to add something to it. That chiefs special you have is definatly a i frame. If you compare it to a chiefs j frame you'll see the many differences . The grips on a j frame are about 1/4 inch longer. You have the earliest production model of the chiefs special. I have one identical to yours with a nickle finish in mint condition with a extra set of mother of pearl grips. The serial number on mine is three digits 8XX.
You can go to smith&wessons web site and get a factory research letter on gun for $50.00. I can't bring myself to shoot mine. You may want to re-think shooting yours,and use a newer one .These early chiefs are very difficult to find,most people have never handled one in person. I love mine!
I know this is a old post,but I wanted to add something to it. That chiefs special you have is definatly a i frame. If you compare it to a chiefs j frame you'll see the many differences . The grips on a j frame are about 1/4 inch longer. You have the earliest production model of the chiefs special. I have one identical to yours with a nickle finish in mint condition with a extra set of mother of pearl grips. The serial number on mine is three digits 8XX.
You can go to smith&wessons web site and get a factory research letter on gun for $50.00. I can't bring myself to shoot mine. You may want to re-think shooting yours,and use a newer one .These early chiefs are very difficult to find,most people have never handled one in person. I love mine!
Wildalaska
Moderator
Flat latch.
Yummy. Retro cool.
WildniceoneAlaska TM
Yummy. Retro cool.
WildniceoneAlaska TM
Kreyzhorse
New member
I thought that was pretty cool myself? Is that standard for that year or model? Don't recall ever having seen one like that but I'm certainly no expert on old S&Ws.
Nice gun by the way.
Mike Irwin
Staff
EPM,
Sorry, you are incorrect.
No Chief's Special I frame was ever made, especially not chambered in .38 Special.
I've had this discussion with a lot of people in the past who swear that their Chief's Special .38 is an I frame AND chambered for .38 Special.
The I frame, even the improved I frame with the slightly larger frame window and coil spring, could not accommodate the .38 Special. S&W never manufactured nor marketed an I frame in .38 Special simply because the standard ammunition of the time, 158-gr. Lead Round Nose, would not fit in the gun. It was too long.
The confusion lies in the fact that very early Chief's Specials, and Jet's is a very early Chief's Special, had the same grip dimensions as the I frame, but the frame window and cylinder dimensions are definitely J frame.
As I have said, I have had this discussion with a number of people who claim to have uber-rare .38 Special I frames, including one guy at a gunshow offering a pre-model no. Chief's Special "I frame" for $3,500.
Every one of them has been a J frame. The cylinder and frame window dimensions do NOT lie.
Sorry, you are incorrect.
No Chief's Special I frame was ever made, especially not chambered in .38 Special.
I've had this discussion with a lot of people in the past who swear that their Chief's Special .38 is an I frame AND chambered for .38 Special.
The I frame, even the improved I frame with the slightly larger frame window and coil spring, could not accommodate the .38 Special. S&W never manufactured nor marketed an I frame in .38 Special simply because the standard ammunition of the time, 158-gr. Lead Round Nose, would not fit in the gun. It was too long.
The confusion lies in the fact that very early Chief's Specials, and Jet's is a very early Chief's Special, had the same grip dimensions as the I frame, but the frame window and cylinder dimensions are definitely J frame.
As I have said, I have had this discussion with a number of people who claim to have uber-rare .38 Special I frames, including one guy at a gunshow offering a pre-model no. Chief's Special "I frame" for $3,500.
Every one of them has been a J frame. The cylinder and frame window dimensions do NOT lie.
pre model 36 finally arrived
Hello Mike,
I really am not intending to create any dispute on the issue. If you argued this point with many people you have been misinformed. In october 1950 smith&wesson unvieled their new gun at the annual chiefs of police conference allowing them to name the gun which of course chief's special was chosen. They took a .38 s&w caliber i frame terrier on a .32frame to paterrn the new gun from. The frame was slightly enlongated to accomadate a .38 special caliber cylinder on the i frame with a flat latch,and half moon front sight as the new gun with production in progress anticipating sales. The gun did not have a model number designation yet. Avaid s&w collectors commonaly refere to this earliest gun as a pre-chiefs special or more often baby chief. It also is a five screw model and tough to find now. By late 1951 the half moon sight was changed to a ramp with a flat latch. The frame was enlarged and desiginated j frame. My i frame chief is sitting on my computer desk as I type this with a barrel marked .38 s&w spl., and loaded with .38 special bullets.
I just got this gun a week ago buying it on gunbroker.com for $700 and happy to find it after years of wanting one. Go to the site enter 130437833 in the search box and take a look. Read the barrel stamping for caliber.
You have not seen one,or you would know better. The early post with the blued one is a i frame .38 special which he is lucky to own. Hope no offence is taken we all can be wrong sometimes yet sure we are right. If you ask on the smith&wesson forum those avid gun collectors will tell you the same thing. If you doubt it ask on the site.
Ed
Hello Mike,
I really am not intending to create any dispute on the issue. If you argued this point with many people you have been misinformed. In october 1950 smith&wesson unvieled their new gun at the annual chiefs of police conference allowing them to name the gun which of course chief's special was chosen. They took a .38 s&w caliber i frame terrier on a .32frame to paterrn the new gun from. The frame was slightly enlongated to accomadate a .38 special caliber cylinder on the i frame with a flat latch,and half moon front sight as the new gun with production in progress anticipating sales. The gun did not have a model number designation yet. Avaid s&w collectors commonaly refere to this earliest gun as a pre-chiefs special or more often baby chief. It also is a five screw model and tough to find now. By late 1951 the half moon sight was changed to a ramp with a flat latch. The frame was enlarged and desiginated j frame. My i frame chief is sitting on my computer desk as I type this with a barrel marked .38 s&w spl., and loaded with .38 special bullets.
I just got this gun a week ago buying it on gunbroker.com for $700 and happy to find it after years of wanting one. Go to the site enter 130437833 in the search box and take a look. Read the barrel stamping for caliber.
You have not seen one,or you would know better. The early post with the blued one is a i frame .38 special which he is lucky to own. Hope no offence is taken we all can be wrong sometimes yet sure we are right. If you ask on the smith&wesson forum those avid gun collectors will tell you the same thing. If you doubt it ask on the site.
Ed
Nice.... My first handgun was this Chief's Special M-36 pictured with my 2nd wheelgun a M-19. I bought the M-36 from my wifes Uncle who was an LEO back around '80. FWIW it came with a leather belt hammer strap holster and 2additional sets of grips (black pearl, and bone). I found out on this board according to the serial number it is circa 1958. The year I was born.
Mike Irwin
Staff
I have an e-mail in to Rick Nahaus, one of the authors of The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, and a prolific Hand Ejector collector, to get his view on this subject.
My responses to your observations are:
"They took a .38 s&w caliber i frame terrier on a .32frame to paterrn the new gun from. The frame was slightly enlongated to accomadate a .38 special caliber cylinder on the i frame..."
The lengthening of the frame to accommodate the .38 Special cartridge is what differentiates an I frame/Improved I frame from a J frame. If you keep the frame dimensions the same as the I frame, you cannot fit a J frame .38 Special cylinder into the frame window.
Early guns did keep the I frame grip dimensions.
This is analogous to what would later be seen with the L frame -- an enlarged frame that maintained the grip size of the K frame. That the L and K share grip sizes doesn't make an L frame a K frame.
The flat latch was not specific to the I frame. K frame airweights could also be had with the flat latch.
Measure the cylinder and frame windows on your gun. I have no doubt that they will both spec. out to the standard J frame dimension even though your gun might have I frame grips. Cylinder should be (IIRC) 1.4" for a J frame, 1.25" for an Improved I.
I've not only seen these very early Chief's Specials, two, three, and four digit serial numbers, I've shot several of them.
My responses to your observations are:
"They took a .38 s&w caliber i frame terrier on a .32frame to paterrn the new gun from. The frame was slightly enlongated to accomadate a .38 special caliber cylinder on the i frame..."
The lengthening of the frame to accommodate the .38 Special cartridge is what differentiates an I frame/Improved I frame from a J frame. If you keep the frame dimensions the same as the I frame, you cannot fit a J frame .38 Special cylinder into the frame window.
Early guns did keep the I frame grip dimensions.
This is analogous to what would later be seen with the L frame -- an enlarged frame that maintained the grip size of the K frame. That the L and K share grip sizes doesn't make an L frame a K frame.
The flat latch was not specific to the I frame. K frame airweights could also be had with the flat latch.
Measure the cylinder and frame windows on your gun. I have no doubt that they will both spec. out to the standard J frame dimension even though your gun might have I frame grips. Cylinder should be (IIRC) 1.4" for a J frame, 1.25" for an Improved I.
I've not only seen these very early Chief's Specials, two, three, and four digit serial numbers, I've shot several of them.
Hi mike,
Great post on this matter. Please let me know per your message to me what the diffinative response is on the e-mail you sent off regarding the i frame, j frame determination on these guns. I'm sure both you and I would both would like to have a absolute answer on this from the doucumented record of evolution of these guns based on Smith & Wessons records.
I find this exact subject comes up all the time with these guns. Thanks for your determination to find a correct answer from the company.
Ed
Great post on this matter. Please let me know per your message to me what the diffinative response is on the e-mail you sent off regarding the i frame, j frame determination on these guns. I'm sure both you and I would both would like to have a absolute answer on this from the doucumented record of evolution of these guns based on Smith & Wessons records.
I find this exact subject comes up all the time with these guns. Thanks for your determination to find a correct answer from the company.
Ed
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I find this exact subject comes up all the time with these guns."
Yes, it certainly does, and the reason is, really, Smith & Wesson themselves.
They set a series of... expectations... for want of a better word, when people learned of the I frame and the Improved I frame (prior to WW II the letter frame designations were pretty much an in-house thing only, not really known to the outside world).
I guess a lot of people expected to continue the I frame, Improved I frame series for the new models chambering .38 Special. But, with what... Super Improved I frame?
What makes it even worse is the knowledge that the Improved I frame is an enlarged version of the I frame - they're not identical.
It really compounded the confusion that the early Chief's Special guns used Improved I frame grips -- J frame grips won't fit these early guns, at least not well. Then you're getting into the entire walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.... Well, in this case, it's a platypus, and you really can't blame people for thinking that they have a Chief's Special made on an I frame. But it's not.
At best I'd call it an I/J transitional with characteristics of both frames. But, because it chambers the .38 Special 158-gr. LRN cartridge, which the Improved I frames can't, it's a J frame.
I'll let you know what Rick says when I hear back from him. He's not particularly speedy in his replies.
Yes, it certainly does, and the reason is, really, Smith & Wesson themselves.
They set a series of... expectations... for want of a better word, when people learned of the I frame and the Improved I frame (prior to WW II the letter frame designations were pretty much an in-house thing only, not really known to the outside world).
I guess a lot of people expected to continue the I frame, Improved I frame series for the new models chambering .38 Special. But, with what... Super Improved I frame?
What makes it even worse is the knowledge that the Improved I frame is an enlarged version of the I frame - they're not identical.
It really compounded the confusion that the early Chief's Special guns used Improved I frame grips -- J frame grips won't fit these early guns, at least not well. Then you're getting into the entire walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.... Well, in this case, it's a platypus, and you really can't blame people for thinking that they have a Chief's Special made on an I frame. But it's not.
At best I'd call it an I/J transitional with characteristics of both frames. But, because it chambers the .38 Special 158-gr. LRN cartridge, which the Improved I frames can't, it's a J frame.
I'll let you know what Rick says when I hear back from him. He's not particularly speedy in his replies.
SamStafford
Moderator
Very nice pictures.
Master Blaster
New member
Here is one for sale on GB now Description:
S&W started producing the Baby Chiefs Special in 1950. It had a half-moon front sight , 38 special cal., flat cylinder relese ( not a raised flat release ),& was J-Frame with I-Frame grip size. At this time S&W had not started putting model numbers on the chiefs. This S&W has the serial number 139, mfr.1950 in the first week of production. Shortly later S&W changed the half-moon front sight to a ramp front sight, the flat cylinder release to a raised flat release, & the original I-Frame grip size to the larger J-Frame grip size. This is a great 5 screw S&W Baby Chiefs Special with matching numbers on bottom of tappered barrel #139, back of cylinder #139, & bottom of frame butt #139. Original numbered grips on this gun are numbered 129, Smith & Wesson had to mix these up being the first week of production. They should be #139 & are dark walnut diamond magnas in mint condition. Frame yoke cut & yoke have matching part numbers #266. This is a J-Frame with '38 S.& W. SPL.' on the right side of barrel with I-Frame size grip. As for grips I have the original numbered #129 (should have been #139 )diamond magnas in mint condition with a few small & light dings, check the pictures.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=132191515
S&W started producing the Baby Chiefs Special in 1950. It had a half-moon front sight , 38 special cal., flat cylinder relese ( not a raised flat release ),& was J-Frame with I-Frame grip size. At this time S&W had not started putting model numbers on the chiefs. This S&W has the serial number 139, mfr.1950 in the first week of production. Shortly later S&W changed the half-moon front sight to a ramp front sight, the flat cylinder release to a raised flat release, & the original I-Frame grip size to the larger J-Frame grip size. This is a great 5 screw S&W Baby Chiefs Special with matching numbers on bottom of tappered barrel #139, back of cylinder #139, & bottom of frame butt #139. Original numbered grips on this gun are numbered 129, Smith & Wesson had to mix these up being the first week of production. They should be #139 & are dark walnut diamond magnas in mint condition. Frame yoke cut & yoke have matching part numbers #266. This is a J-Frame with '38 S.& W. SPL.' on the right side of barrel with I-Frame size grip. As for grips I have the original numbered #129 (should have been #139 )diamond magnas in mint condition with a few small & light dings, check the pictures.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=132191515
Mike Irwin
Staff
That Gun Broker description is exactly what I'm talking about.
What the hell. I think I'm going to bid on that one.
What the hell. I think I'm going to bid on that one.
Very nice. I've always had a soft spot for the model 36. I would love to buy a new one from the classics series in nickel plate but don't want that damn internal lock on there. I haven't really gotten into the vintage thing yet. Don't know enough about collecting to keep from getting screwed buying used. Looks like you found a really nice piece though. Congrats.