Federal "Subscription" begins as reported in July by Forbes

[TunnelRat]

Federal "Subscription" begins as reported in July by Forbes

Yes, just as I acknowledged at the beginning of my previous post. For me personally, given Ruag is the parent company of Norma that’s their call and as you say likely an element of marketing. I don’t know that I care whether that ammunition is made in the original Norma factory, though others might. My goal is simply lower cost, brass-cased, new production ammunition.

While all of this is interesting information, to me it’s tangential to the original point of this thread (even if the OP’s origin claims don’t apply to all the ammunition sold by normashooting and ammoshoponline). Yes, there is more affordable ammunition available than that available through this subscription. Some of it is made in the US, some in Germany, some in other countries. The OP didn’t mention that more than that there are also online retailers selling Vista Outdoor products for cheaper than this subscription, notably so.

My opinion is this subscription isn’t for the people who are already using ammoseek or other sources to find cheap ammunition. I think this is for people who want a guaranteed source of ammunition and don’t care about the cost, and I believe those people exist. I’ve personally benefited from ammoshoponline and normashooting selling ammunition for lower prices. However, many of those batches/products that I bought are currently out of stock on ammoshoponline. That I could buy them for $0.30 a round last month doesn’t help another person today or tomorrow. The products that are available currently at those sites are available for roughly a cent or less a round (pre-shipping) than retailers selling other Vista products.

If Federal today started selling subscriptions of 9mm for $0.30 a round, I do not believe they would be able to guarantee those subscriptions as they would undercut the market and demand would outstrip supply. Then we would be where we were in the past. Doing this would also anger Federal’s chain of distributors and online retailers who are selling currently. As best as I can tell ammoshoponline and normashooting are the primary distributors for Ruag products in the states. I don’t see many of those products at other retailers. In short, those websites can afford to undercut the competition to a level that Federal can’t as long as Federal wants to keep that supply chain happy.

I have no special love for Federal (I own no Vista stock specifically) and I have no doubt they are making a very healthy profit. At the same time I don’t think some of the outrage here has been thought through entirely.

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[reddog81]

I can't imagine this will work out well for them. All the gun stores near me have brass 9mm for around $20 a box and I just looked online and you can get Blazer brass ammo for 35% less than this subscription.

If the price was around $100 per box of 250 they'd have decent demand. At $140 they're pricing themselves out of the market for just about everyone. I'm surprised they don't have some initial offer scheme for $75 for the first package and them jump to $140 after that. A lot of people love stuff like that and once you've got them to commit a lot of people will just keep paying the normal rate.

 

[wild cat mccane]

This is actually important to us buyers.

Forbes released an article in July that said Vista was going to do this. The point was stated as Vista wanted to get scarce ammo to people and at a fair price.

Well what a load of crap that turned out to be. In fact, Vista does none of that with this price being double what you can find for CCI (Vista owned) 115gr Blazer.

So while I'm beating the drum, remember this the next time the Speer or Federal CEO gets on YouTube and cries about material cost and the like. It's totally proven false. Swiss, Hungarian, Sweden, and US made Norma/Normal white box and cheaper version GECO has been 100% available the the low cost leader this whole time. With free shipping.

 

[TunnelRat]

Federal "Subscription" begins as reported in July by Forbes

You have admitted that you yourself are spending your dollars elsewhere. You’ve had multiple threads highlighting where more affordable ammunition can be found. By now I have to wonder, what is the point? Are you really so beset by the perceived inequities of the ammunition situation that you feel the need for a thread every so many months to rehash the same topic? Are are you just shouting into the wind and wanting an audience?


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[wild cat mccane]

I'm set on it because there is a very toxic culture in the gun community to admit one political side is always right. The fact is, the CEO of Federal and Speer are straight up lying on YouTube to their consumers. Vista is a US ammo monopoly. The worst gougers of the US gun community is the largest US gun group.

No one seems to say this but me. AND I'm actually right

If I am the only one that is mentioning this, it's kinda odd since it is so easy to validate what I'm saying.

 

[TunnelRat]

Federal "Subscription" begins as reported in July by Forbes

Yes, the obvious explanation is you’re the one sane/honest person.

Thank you for admitting that the impetus of these threads has been at least in part political this whole time.


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[wild cat mccane]

Totally political.

When a monopoly's CEOs blame political issues, it becomes larger than politics though.

 

[TunnelRat]

Federal "Subscription" begins as reported in July by Forbes

All of this to make a political statement to whom exactly? This forum? Is your thought process that you’ll show people corporations are self interested, and then what, they’ll realize the error of their ways? As if people were unaware that corporations are self interested? The level of hubris here is amazing.


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[wild cat mccane]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure I pointed you to best priced 9mm anyone could find for frangible 9mm through Norma? Shipped free.

I can't say anyone's rantings, and correct rants, have saved me a single dollar on gun forums?

So if I save you dollars and am taking on Vista Outdoors, why be annoyed by my longitudinal updating proving we are getting soaked?

Vista Subscription is a new update to this story. It's an important update to consumers because the purpose was to help. It does not help us.

 

[TunnelRat]

Federal "Subscription" begins as reported in July by Forbes

I think I’m the one of the two of us on this thread that actually pointed anyone to a currently in stock product. You have mentioned them to me in the past, but I had seen them before because their prices are such that they always show up near the top of the ammoseek results (a fact of which they are aware as I’ve watched them change prices to maintain that spot). This isn’t some inside baseball. All you need is to go on ammoseek.

Maybe this is all altruistic. To be honest, from your most recent posts it seems like you’re seeking validation of your correctness from the others on the thread more than you’re trying to raise awareness. Maybe that impression is just the cynic in me.


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[TruthTellers]

I'm set on it because there is a very toxic culture in the gun community to admit one political side is always right. The fact is, the CEO of Federal and Speer are straight up lying on YouTube to their consumers. Vista is a US ammo monopoly. The worst gougers of the US gun community is the largest US gun group.

No one seems to say this but me. AND I'm actually right

If I am the only one that is mentioning this, it's kinda odd since it is so easy to validate what I'm saying.

I don't see how you can say Federal/Vista is a monopoly because they have plenty of competition if people can find retailers who sell the ammo at reasonable prices and don't jack up the prices and hide behind the baloney of protecting their downside against potential future price increases. About the only monopoly Vista has over its competition is it sells ammo direct to the end user- at prices nearly double what can be found from other online retailers.

I can't complain too much about that tho, not when those same retailers are asking for double or triple the price for .22 ammo that CCI will sell it for with a 10 box quantity limit and spotty at times availability.

Due to inflation the cost of materials has gone up, but that's not what's caused the current situation, it's demand outstripping supply and because of that shortage sellers will ask for more because the value of their item is worth more, but Federal is the manufacturer and unless the price of lead, brass, and powder has doubled then Federal is gouging.

It's my opinion that traditional economics is no longer in play where the market is saying something is worth a certain amount, but reality is dictating that it's worth far more. Case and point is the Silver market earlier this year, there was rumors of a shortage coming and it sent prices up to nearly $30/oz, yet sellers were charging people $40+ an ounce for new bars, rounds, and coins, but wouldn't buy that same bullion at the $40+ price. Thus the market's spot price of Silver was essentially hooey, companies like APMEX were cashing in on a panic buy.

Federal is doing the same thing, but the snag they've hit is the pandemic is effectively over and the anti gun side is poised to be creamed in the elections next year. Whether or not the demand from the millions of new gun owners will subside is questionable, but logic dictates if your potential customer base has grown by millions in the span of just two years you should be expanding your production ability to meet that potential demand.

No ammo manufacturer is doing that tho and it seems under no circumstances will any ammo manufacturer invest in expanding their production capacity; they are sitting fat and happy with the way things are now.

 

[shafter]

Management is accountable to shareholders not the customers.

 

[reddog81]

If you can find cheaper ammo elsewhere buy it there. It’s that simple.

They’re hesitant to expand capacity because by the time new factories will be up and running, republicans will take over the House or Senate or both and demand will tank. Then they’ll go bankrupt trying to pay for those new ammo lines that are not being used and covering unemployment for the employees they had to lay off.

 

[Drm50]

The Browning 9mm is second to worst. The Herters is worst. This was results of 2 HPs, a Kimber , 2 SIGs & 2 m39 S&Ws. Close to 10% duds, some went off on second strike.

 

[TruthTellers]

If you can find cheaper ammo elsewhere buy it there. It’s that simple.

They’re hesitant to expand capacity because by the time new factories will be up and running, republicans will take over the House or Senate or both and demand will tank. Then they’ll go bankrupt trying to pay for those new ammo lines that are not being used and covering unemployment for the employees they had to lay off.

Over 9 million new gun owners dating back to 2020 and they're suddenly just going to stop buying ammo? Please...

I learned for the first time that PSA is planning to begin making steel case ammo in the US soon and that is going to be the solution: brand new ammo companies making ammo, not existing ones who refuse to expand their production capacity.

So the end result will be Federal will lose market share and thus money.

 

[Nathan]

So, why aren't ammo makers building new facilities or expanding their current facilities? They don't see this high demand continuing and have said they see it dropping considerably by 2023 (after the mid terms).

Obviously you expand operations when you see a long term trend of increased demand and if the millions of new gun owners isn't a flashing neon sign that there is going to be an increase in long term demand then the executives who are paid big bucks to forecast these changes in the future have failed at their jobs.

This is the problem. This is not a blip in the radar. The guns have been sold. People are buying. The pandemic effect has lessened, but still no ammo, powder, primers and limited bullets available. Unless this stuff is all in a shipping container waiting to unload??

 

[emissary1911]

Ive read the post, and This is just my 2 cents on this component situation !
I have ask many people that I know who are gun dealers , in the ammo side of the business, many question. And I am starting to hear the same thing. Yes we are seing a little ammo come back ,but at higher than normal prices! And if you can find powder, primers outrageous prices!

What I am hearing ,is that the majority of primers and powder is going north of the border, to Canada. And if this is true ,its bad news for US citizens, because you cant go there, buy these items and bring them back into the US.

And I had a thought on this of my own, Yes the CEO of Vista makes YouTube video's and tells us he and other manufactures are working around the clock to supply the ammo.
If you think about it, all gun , ammo manufactures and anyone in the firearms business. has to answer to the BATF which is a part of the treasury dept!
Who better to control the flow, of powder , primers and any other component s of our craft. And if they dont follow any rules or regulations put forth by BATF ,then what happens is they may/will lose their license!

Now if anyone remembers ,and I don't remember the exact words, Obama, said that If he could not take our guns ,he could make sure we couldn't use them by taking the ammo!

Well look what happen when Joe blow got in office!

Now I'm not trying to start a conspiracy theory, But ,It just seems funny, that now that brandon is in the white house , all these situations are going on and when I ask I'm hearing that many of the components are going to Canada!

Now like I said at the first this is just my 2 cents worth ,and my thoughts about the BATF controlling all of this may be way off base, But it was just a thought I had. SO if anyone wants to rant on me feel free, I can take it !!

 

[reddog81]

What I am hearing ,is that the majority of primers and powder is going north of the border, to Canada. And if this is true ,its bad news for US citizens, because you cant go there, buy these items and bring them back into the US.

Don’t believe everything you hear. Canada has about 10% of the population of the US and a much lower % of firearm owners. If the majority of components were going there every shop would be full to the brim with components.

FWIW the ammo shortage started well before November 2020.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

Ive read the post, and This is just my 2 cents on this component situation !
I have ask many people that I know who are gun dealers , in the ammo side of the business, many question. And I am starting to hear the same thing. Yes we are seing a little ammo come back ,but at higher than normal prices! And if you can find powder, primers outrageous prices!

What I am hearing ,is that the majority of primers and powder is going north of the border, to Canada. And if this is true ,its bad news for US citizens, because you cant go there, buy these items and bring them back into the US.

And I had a thought on this of my own, Yes the CEO of Vista makes YouTube video's and tells us he and other manufactures are working around the clock to supply the ammo.
If you think about it, all gun , ammo manufactures and anyone in the firearms business. has to answer to the BATF which is a part of the treasury dept!
Who better to control the flow, of powder , primers and any other component s of our craft. And if they dont follow any rules or regulations put forth by BATF ,then what happens is they may/will lose their license!

Now if anyone remembers ,and I don't remember the exact words, Obama, said that If he could not take our guns ,he could make sure we couldn't use them by taking the ammo!

Well look what happen when Joe blow got in office!

Now I'm not trying to start a conspiracy theory, But ,It just seems funny, that now that brandon is in the white house , all these situations are going on and when I ask I'm hearing that many of the components are going to Canada!

Now like I said at the first this is just my 2 cents worth ,and my thoughts about the BATF controlling all of this may be way off base, But it was just a thought I had. SO if anyone wants to rant on me feel free, I can take it !!

Not to flame you or anything, but this makes no sense. Why would manufacturers send their product to Canada where the demand is so much lower, thus prices have to remain low to be competitive. It only makes sense to sell it here in the U.S. where demand and prices are high increasing their profits. If I read the regulations correctly, the President can restrict the export of arms and munitions but can’t force the exportation of such. But, these days there are a lot of things happening that make no sense whatsoever so who can be sure of anything.

 

[emissary1911]

If you think about it, no the president can’t force exportation,But BATF controls it.
Anyone with a firearms license is subject to control of the BATF, hence BATF can dictate the rules.and the Treasury dept.
And in my experience the Treasury dept has a lot more power than anyone in DC !
Like I Said in my OP,it’s just my 2cents worth, but it seems like a good way to control components specially when we can’t go to Canada buy them and bring them back!