fast burning powders for 38spl

[Sevens]

Titegroup is VERY fast burning but I have done enough attempts with this powder to unequivocally -BAN- it’s use in .38 Special at my load bench.

It just burns too damn hot. I think it’s the high nitro content. I’m not at all worried about damage to my guns… but .38 Special with Titegroup scorches my hand and loathe it.

I was taught decades back to eject cases from a double action revolver with two fingers wrapped around the cylinder through the frame while hitting the ejector rod with my thumb. Literally been doing it the same way since I was taught as a teenager. And Titegroup literally causes me pain in my hand.

This might sound ridiculous if you haven’t loaded much with this powder but I’m certain it’s real. At my bench, Titegroup is BANNED in .38 Special.

 

[lugerstew]

I have one of those LCR pistols in 357mag.. I don't really care for it, too much recoil and not much velocity.
Try shooting that indoors or when its dark outside, you will not believe the fireballs that come from that gun out the muzzle and front of cylinder, myself, I don't think you will ever burn all the powder in 1.8 inches, no matter what powder you use.

 

[Mike Irwin]

231 has always been my go to powder for .38 Special, and I really don't see anything ever changing that.

If I HAD to make another choice, though, it would probably be Accurate No. 2.

 

[Unclenick]

Higher pressure, either from more powder, heavier bullet weight, harder bullet material, much harder crimping (as from the Redding profile crimp die, for example), or hotter ignition (spm or srp instead of a standard pistol primer, for example) all have the ability to burn the powder better. But the short barrels all fight the fact they don't allow a lot of barrel time for bullet, so small variations in ignition tend to result in more velocity variation as the location of the bullet in the barrel at the peak pressure varies and is a more significant percentage of the total with the short barrel than with even a three-inch. One fellow on another board actually had an extreme spread equal to 25% of his mean velocity n his snubby (I've forgotten the powder). I recommended he try going to Bullseye. The result was the highest velocity seen in the spread went down, but the ignition and resulting velocity were consistent and, surprisingly, the mean velocity was about the same as the slow powder because of all the underperforming, poorly ignited rounds in the mix with it. But YMMV on that point.

Of course, with higher pressure you don't want to wind up with too much pressure, so mind the load workup.

 

[Shadow9mm]

Higher pressure, either from more powder, heavier bullet weight, harder bullet material, much harder crimping (as from the Redding profile crimp die, for example), or hotter ignition (spm or srp instead of a standard pistol primer, for example) all have the ability to burn the powder better. But the short barrels all fight the fact they don't allow a lot of barrel time for bullet, so small variations in ignition tend to result in more velocity variation as the location of the bullet in the barrel at the peak pressure varies and is a more significant percentage of the total with the short barrel than with even a three-inch. One fellow on another board actually had an extreme spread equal to 25% of his mean velocity n his snubby (I've forgotten the powder). I recommended he try going to Bullseye. The result was the highest velocity seen in the spread went down, but the ignition and resulting velocity were consistent and, surprisingly, the mean velocity was about the same as the slow powder because of all the underperforming, poorly ignited rounds in the mix with it. But YMMV on that point.

Of course, with higher pressure you don't want to wind up with too much pressure, so mind the load workup.

I am already using SRP as they are all I have left. I also put as firm a roll crimp on as I can without bulging the case.

As far as too much pressure, its a Ruger LCP that is +P Rated. While I do generally work up to book max, I never use +P data, just straight 38spl, so I should be ok. Work it up from start, check as you go

Hitting the gun shop tomorrow, will probably buy 1lb of clays. Its a pretty fast burning powder based on the burn rate charts.

When I get time, and its not 11 degrees out, I will get out and do some testing. Will probably try my available powders at start and max, out of both my snubbie and 6in gun for comparison.

 

[Don P]

I was using titegroup in 38 spl. 3.6 grains under a 160 gr coated lead bullet.
Titegroup is fast and HOT burning. Shooting ICORE (revolver competition) in a 28-36 round stage and the cylinder is good and hot to the touch at the end

 

[L. Boscoe]

fast burning powders for 38 spl

Wasn't this pistol cartridge first used with black powder? I heard it was designed for black powder.
It would seem that maybe something that would take up some space in the cartridge would hasten burning, if indeed that will take care of your issue.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Wasn't this pistol cartridge first used with black powder? I heard it was designed for black powder."

Yes. The .38 Special was originally designed around black powder, which is why the case is so long in comparison to cartridges like the 9mm, which were originally designed for smokeless powder.

 

[Unclenick]

I never use +P data, just straight 38spl, so I should be ok.

My thought was, you might have to go to +P to get better burning out of Power Pistol. However, I just ran the numbers in QuickLOAD and it thinks you'll only reduce the unburned powder by about 10% doing that. You may improve velocity consistency a little, but given the charge weights, it is of dubious value. The snubby just isn't an application Power Pistol is really suited for. A powder QuickLOAD thinks will give you almost the same velocity, but will burn about 92% completely instead of just 80% as with PP, is Alliant Herco. The best performer, with 99.5% burnt and the same velocity as Herco, is Nitrochemie P2636 Ws, but I don't know where you'd find that here. Both run about 18 fps slower MV than Power Pistol, but the burn is so much better. Herco is something I would look at.

 

[Shadow9mm]

I picked up 1lb of hodgdon clays. Would you mind running it?

Herco is a touch slower burning than PP, wonder if it's just easier to ignite.

 

[Unclenick]

Clays is super fast burning. Typically, the load is lighter than a load of Bullseye. No way to get much velocity from it without going overpressure. Hodgdon has 3.1 grains maximum for either cast or jacketed 158-grain bullets.

 

[Shadow9mm]

Velocity was somewhat low to begin with in the 750 to 825 range. Hodgdon lists the 3.1max at 871fps. Even though it was in a 7in barrel, with as fast burning as it it. I may still be in the 750 to 825 range I'm the snubbie. Goal is a full burn. Even if velocity is low, that's ok.

 

[Unclenick]

That 7" barrel is to mimic a single-shot pistol, so it has no barrel/cylinder gap to bleed pressure down. Also, even after a powder burns out, its gas is still present, so it continues to accelerate a bullet still in the tube. I wouldn't be surprised if you discover your velocity drops into the 650 fps range.

 

[Shadow9mm]

We will find out for sure this week, weather permitting

 

[Shadow9mm]

Well I got some loads put together, and the weather is looking good tomorrow. Gonna test the following. HP-38 has 3 loads because the spread was wider from start to max. Probably start a new thread with the results.

38spl
mixed brass
CCI Small Pistol Primers
Brazos 148g SWC (hi-tek coated)
heavy crimp in the groove

Clays
Start 2.8g
Max 3.1g at 871fps out of a 7.7in barrel per Hodgdon

HP-38
Start 3.1g
middle 3.7g
Max 4.4g at 850fps out of a 4in barrel per Hornady

Power Pistol
Start 4.7g
Max 5.2g at 850fps out of a 4in barrel per Hornady

 

[jetinteriorguy]

I would have skipped a heavy crimp. Just removing the flair will be more than sufficient. I’ve gotten by with a medium crimp using copper plated but with Hitec coated I’ve had problems with the coating flaking off. I shoot a ton of both using similar loads and never had an issue with bullets pulling under normal neck tension.

 

[Unclenick]

A lot depends on the mass of the revolver and the bullet and also on the powder charge. This is because how hard the gun recoils will determine how hard it pushes back on the case rims, and whether or not that is hard enough to pull the case off the bullet is also determined by how much inertia the bullet has trying to keep it in the same place in space. Generally speaking, the lighter the gun and the heavier the charge and the bullet, the more likely you are to have trouble with bullets pulling.

In an extreme example, a friend of mine got a titanium 5-shot revolver in 45 Colt. This is a big fellow with big hands. No ammunition he could make or buy off the shelf with 250-grain bullets would fail to pull bullets. Only 200-grain and lighter bullets could be made to stay in place.

 

[pete2]

Clays, WST and Titegroup are clean burning powders. I have a target load of 231 but it's real nasty , unburned powder or ash, I don't know which, same using Green Dot, too much unburned powder, it'll get under the extractor and screw up a speed load.

 

[Shadow9mm]

A lot depends on the mass of the revolver and the bullet and also on the powder charge. This is because how hard the gun recoils will determine how hard it pushes back on the case rims, and whether or not that is hard enough to pull the case off the bullet is also determined by how much inertia the bullet has trying to keep it in the same place in space. Generally speaking, the lighter the gun and the heavier the charge and the bullet, the more likely you are to have trouble with bullets pulling.

In an extreme example, a friend of mine got a titanium 5-shot revolver in 45 Colt. This is a big fellow with big hands. No ammunition he could make or buy off the shelf with 250-grain bullets would fail to pull bullets. Only 200-grain and lighter bullets could be made to stay in place.

Its a touch on the light side at 13.5oz unloaded. Feels like next to nothing. a bit snappy with regular 38spl, down right unpleasant with stout 38s or +P.

 

[Shadow9mm]

38spl Snubbie Powder testing

So I tested some bullets in a ballistics gel block the other day. After firing out of my snubbie the front of the block had a bunch of unburnt powder all over it. So I decided to do some powder testing with that powder and some faster ones.

Ruger LCR chambered 38spl P+ (no +P loads used) with a 1.87in barrel.
Mixed 38spl brass
CCI #500 Small Pistol Primers
Brazos 158g SWC (hi-tek coated lead)
5 shot groups unless otherwise noted

Power Pistol (the one with a lot of unburned powder)
4.7g, avg 734fps, SD 4.35, ES 8 (4 shots, 1 registered at 13,000fps was removed)
5.2g, 804fos (only got 1 good reading, 1 error, 104fps, 99fps, 102fps, 804fps)

HP-38 (aka W-231)
3.1, avg 524fps, SD 22.6, ES 53
3.7, avg 652fps, SD 27.63, ES 75
4.4, Avg 739fps, SD 4.39, ES 11

Hodgdon Clays
2.8, avg 632, SD 12.77, ES 28
3.1, Avg 677, SD 14.17, ES 37

Notes,
Power Pistol had an unholy muzzle flash, Bright light yellow, about 8in in diameter and about 1ft long. Recoil was painful in the light gun.

HP-38, Has minimal muzzle flash, small orange fire ball, maybe 1in by 1in. recoil was moderate, not painful.

Clays. No muzzle flash. Mild recoil but snappy or abrupt. Could shoot these regularly in the snubbie.