Expectation to Intervene with OC?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Reading the OC thread about losing your gun, this thought came to me. I'm interested in the psychology of altruism. Why do you help others? It's a common gun thread - what would you do if you saw some bad thing - like a woman being beaten or someone robbing the Stop and Rob while you are in it?

Many caution against rash intervention. Some say - They couldn't live with themselves if they didn't act. Old debate.

But let's say, you are OC'ing. A bad thing happens.

1. Will folks think you are law and demand you act? You do see OC around here and its the law. I once ate at a fancy restaurant and a set of nicely dressed women in slacks came in with Glocks (the law).

2. Will others see the gun and even if they don't think you are the law - yell for you to join in?

3. Does the overt presence prime you more to intervene? A hidden gun might not suggest action as well as open one that you chose the public to see.

Thoughts?

 

[Carry_24/7]

I think the pressure to intervene would be strong and choosing to intervene with "appropriate" force would be the right thing to do. We have no duty to act as a cop would, so it would be purely a personal choice to do so. We could choose to silently slip out the back door and call 911. If we choose to intervene, unless deadly force is appropriate, we could not draw our weapon as a civilian. Only a cop can threaten deadly force to stop a felony or other wise arrest someone even if there is no immediate reason to pull the trigger.

CC or OC, as civilians, our weapon is only to defend our life or the life of another against deadly force.

Showing or drawing our weapon for any other reason would be a crime.

 

[irish52084]

One of the first things I noticed about open carrying was that 90% or more of people don't even realize you have a gun on your hip. When something is happening like a robbery or a fight, people tunnel vision up and forget things like you having a gun. Even if they do realize you've got a gun, you have no duty to respond or jump into action.

I can't really answer any of the questions for sure, because every person reacts differently to things. Some may assume you are law enforcement and demand action, most won't even notice you have a gun in the first place. I'm not convinced that open carry primes you more to intervene in situations.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I understand the legalities and standard arguments against intervention.

My conjecture is whether the act of OC influences action decisions - which may be below the conscious level.

I was also interested in if the public sees the gun - given something is occuring - whether than would lead them to call on you.

For instance, I can legitimately call myself Dr. Meyer. It's the common usage at work. But I don't when out of work. Physicians do. One reason not to, is that the assumption is that if you use the title outside of work - folks think you are an MD.

I don't want to make restaurant reservations with the title, have someone drop dead at the next table and have the waiter come to me. What am I going to do? Give them a final exam?

Same logic - would an OC'er, if it becomes more prevalent, stand the risk of an analogous situation?

 

[GoOfY-FoOt]

I, too, have given this much thought.

I think the first things that stand out, are both the public's perception of an LEO, as well as the rampant hypocrisy between "law-abiding citizen" and "of strong moral character".

Most people claim to follow the law. Most people say they would offer assistance to another human, being targeted by a criminal.

But the reality of both of those, is that people make small judgements, on their own, and these mini-decisions become part of who they are.

Example: A certain young man may hold the door open for every female he encounters, but fail to speak up when two women fight.
Another individual may never, ever drink and drive, but rarely wears a seatbelt, and regularly speeds.
A cop may dish out a little extracurricular activity when arresting a punk on suspicion of domestic violence, but turn a blind eye to some thug-on-thug crimes. Or the always entertaining, "my dealer took my money and aint gave me my drugs" call.

I agree with Irish, that most people don't even see a sidearm, in normal situations, so it's likely that in a condition red moment, they are even less focused on you. On the other hand, you may be mistaken for an accomplice or lookout, as well. The duty lies with each individual and must be weighed based on the dynamics of each individual situation.

Many who consider themselves decent, law-abiding and moral people, still tend to let 'justice' be served, from time to time, and still others, will avoid getting involved if there is no real victim in view, as well.

Right or wrong, we will ALL be 'judged', one day. And, perhaps there is some truth to the belief that ALL of our actions during our lives, will factor into that verdict.

 

[sakeneko]

Interesting question.

I open carry some, especially in the summer when concealing my rather large carry gun is more difficult. I doubt that anybody would mistake me for a police officer or security professional -- I'm a middle-aged, obese woman. However, if I spotted an attacker who was clearly threatening another person's life, and I thought that the person would die if somebody didn't intervene, it would be *very* hard not to try to protect that person. It would be impossible if the person were a child, an elderly/disabled person, or an adult who had children with them.

I don't think that my reaction would be different depending on whether I was carrying openly or concealed, though.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Assuming that you are a lawfully armed "civilian," I don't see how or why a decision to intervene or not to intervene would in any way be affected by whether I was carrying open or concealed. My considerations would be:

• Does the situation allow me to intervene?
• Is the situation clear enough to know who the bad guy(s) is(are)?
• Does the situation legally justify the use of deadly force?
• If I interject my handgun into the situation, will I be helping or will I be making a bad situation worse?
• Am I alone or with my family? If I am with my family, would my intervention potentially endanger them?

There are probably some other factors that would run through my head, as well. But whether my sidearm is visible or concealed is not one of them.

 

[MLeake]

The only situation I've run into while carrying, didn't quite fit this bill.

I witnessed a two-car wreck on the interstate, and pulled over to provide whatever assistance I could. One SUV was on its side, one compact car was in about two feet of standing water.

I didn't figure I'd be able to keep my pistol concealed while potentially climbing into overturned or partially submerged vehicles, and I was afraid people would freak if they saw it, so I actually took off the holster and stuck gun and holster in my center console after pulling to the shoulder, before running over to the scene.

 

[MLeake]

Another thing I've noticed, at various problem situations (ranging from dog fights to near-drownings to domestic battery): People can usually tell by body language and demeanor who can probably be counted on to help.

Unfortunately, it's one of those things where a good job's only reward is another job...

IE some of us find ourselves intervening at times, because others simply seem to expect we will - and they leave it to us.

Read about Kitty Genovese, or any number of other studies of group dynamics, and you'll find that most people, when in a group or crowd, assume others will handle a problem.

Irritating....

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies.

The interesting issue that is going through my mind is whether openly displaying a symbol of power (which the gun is) influences you more to consider using it. Of course, on quality forums like this, we are aware of the risks. But could it have a subtle influence - hmmm?

Second, so there you are and something does happen. Of course, you have your own evaluation of the situation. It might be time to flee.

What if someone sees you and explicity asks for intervention.

One can be very pragmatic. A man is beating a woman. It is not your business. There are risks. You might decide not to do anything. Get out of Dodge to call the cops.

Then, another bystander says - YOU have a gun - DO something!

Still leave the scene, argue with the bystander? What to do?

 

[MLeake]

A man beating a woman? I know from experience I won't walk off on that one...

In a more grey area encounter, such as a couple teenagers getting into a brawl, my reaction might vary.

In such a case, could somebody shame me into acting, when I otherwise would not have done so? I don't know... I don't shame that easily.

I don't think having an OC gun would really make much difference, at least not to me. From experience, though, I can say that who I'm with will have at least some impact.

If I had not been at the beach with my mother, the day I was running a fever and the pelican with the broken wing was flapping around and struggling in the surf, I probably would not have kicked out of my shoes and gone in to retrieve it. (And let me tell you, I had no idea how large and sharp that beak looked until a frightened pelican started swinging it at me like a sword...)

My parents were the types to help elderly neighbors shovel driveways, fix windows, etc. My mother would pull over to get turtles out of the road.

I think some of us are geared to act, in general, and are very loath to let down those who care about us.

So I'd normally act, when I can, and will virtually always act, if with my mother, my sister, my lady, etc.

With people in general, I don't care so much about their opinions, so some areas might be more grey.

 

[hogdogs]

The interesting issue that is going through my mind is whether openly displaying a symbol of power (which the gun is) influences you more to consider using it. Of course, on quality forums like this, we are aware of the risks. But could it have a subtle influence - hmmm?

My having a weapon such as a firearm and the legal issues it carries would actually make me more hesitant to join in and more determined to make sure I have an accurate evaluation of the situation than if I was just walking along armed with my wits and possibly my Buck 110.

Second, so there you are and something does happen. Of course, you have your own evaluation of the situation. It might be time to flee.

What if someone sees you and explicity asks for intervention.

I do not just act when asked to, I have learned some valuable lessons regarding this very thing... If my evaluation has me feeling hinky about my involvement, I shall simply walk off no matter who is begging for help.

One can be very pragmatic. A man is beating a woman. It is not your business. There are risks. You might decide not to do anything. Get out of Dodge to call the cops.

Then, another bystander says - YOU have a gun - DO something!

Still leave the scene, argue with the bystander? What to do?

My decision to draw and threaten the life of another is mine and mine alone to make. If I feel that the only means to an end is lethal or nearly lethal force, I will most likely already have my weapon drawn before any bystander or victim knows I am there.

But I still say that my likelihood to intervene is more likely to occur when I am NOT armed with a firearm. If a gal )or even a little guy) is done and the aggressor is on top going for a kill, I think the ol' workboot to their jaw would be my second action following a verbal address.

Brent

 

[Standing Wolf]

The interesting issue that is going through my mind is whether openly displaying a symbol of power (which the gun is) influences you more to consider using it.

Nope. Guns are inanimate objects. They don't exert influence. For those of us who always carry, the presence or absence of a gun is immaterial.

I'll suggest it may be worthwhile to reread Aguila Blanca's post. He said what I was going to say, albeit with greater concision.

 

[Wildalaska]

The interesting issue that is going through my mind is whether openly displaying a symbol of power (which the gun is) influences you more to consider using it. Of course, on quality forums like this, we are aware of the risks. But could it have a subtle influence - hmmm?

Well said. Those in the gun community who fail to recognize the psychological effect that carrying a gun has on certain folks ignore reality.

WildthevidenceiseverywhereAlaska ™©2002-2011

 

[Sarge]

Each situation you encounter will have variables unique to that encounter and those variables will affect your decision on any given day.

Of two things I am certain. It is easier for a man with a concealed pistol to slink off into a crowd, than it is for a man with a gun showing. The second is that it is invariably better to make sure you have evaluated all the information available, before you rush in where angels fear to tread.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Thank you Sarge.

One of the most illuminating exercises I ever routinely encountered in LE training was being presented with a scenario which obviously looked as if (a man were beating a woman; a perpetrator was robbing a store; a man was beating on someone lying prone; etc.) - only to discover that in reality the person who appeared to be the perpetrator was not - and that the individual who appeared to be the victim was not what s/he appeared to be either. Each of the scenarios was based on real-world documented events.

If a civilian with a firearm had drawn the obvious immediate conclusion and charged in, they could have made things much worse.

I think the more interesting part of Glenn's proposal is not whether OC functions as a subconscious determining factor in the behavior of the person carrying - but more whether the expectations of the public cause that person to behave in ways that they would otherwise not choose to.

IOW, based on no one being in immediate threat of loss of life, someone may choose not to intervene in a fight between a man and a woman (with a legally carried firearm).

But if three other bystanders notice the OC firearm and plead, beseech, or demand that the OC civilian intervene, that person may subsequently be more inclined to behave in a way that - by themselves - they would not.

Think about it.

How many times have you done something in your life not because you necessarily wanted to, but because it was expected of you by others?

The same sort of dynamic would be called into play in such situations as Glenn postulated.

You may not want to intervene, however, it might be - quite vocally - expected of you by others...and their expectations (and what they would say or think about you afterwards) might strongly influence your decision-making.

 

[Carry_24/7]

I would ask two major questions:

Is the offender pointing or firing a gun?

Is my family with me?

If only number 1 is yes, I will intervene.

If numbers 1 and 2 are yes, my first duty is to protect my family, whether it means guard, escort out, or directly engage the gunman.

If the situation can wait for the cops, I will not unnecessarily wade into violent situations while wearing a gun. If he's slapping her around in the restaurant, I'm sure it's not the first time, won't be the last, and that can wait for the law to arrive. Later, she will bail him out and leave her "hero" in jail to rot.

If it's a robbery, I refer to question and response to number 1 above. It's not my money, i'm not a cop, hope they are insured. My duty is to protect mine and my family's life, not prevent robberies. Most businesses won't let their own employees carry, so, they reap what they sow. They can't depend on us, the public, to defend their financial interests, but I will defend life, but it's mine and my family's first.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

One can be very pragmatic. A man is beating a woman. It is not your business. There are risks. You might decide not to do anything. Get out of Dodge to call the cops.

Then, another bystander says - YOU have a gun - DO something!

Still leave the scene, argue with the bystander? What to do?

Hand the gun to Mr. Helpful Bystander.

"You think he needs to be shot? Here -- YOU shoot him."

 

[Carry_24/7]

Aguila; good stuff....

Danite; all true.

 

[GoOfY-FoOt]

What??? GMAB...I'm tired of all of this current garbage equating guns to some sort of mystical taboo. It's a gun! It's not a magical, anti-matter, molecular destabilizer, with built-in super-conductor and microwave.

The reason that we need to open carry is simply to begin to desensitize the clueless public back into the realm of norm that OC used to be associated with.

Several comments here are very true and thought provoking. Aguila Blanca has it spot on, for a response to an instigator, when you just don't want to get involved.

Doc Intrepid makes another valid point that resonates, as well. I can, all too easily, visualize a scenario that you may encounter, where the good guy or victim may have attained the upper hand, if even for a moment, and a rush to judgement, which is rarely prudent, could be very detrimental.



I think that just like some cops and security folks, a few people strap on a gun for the wrong reasons. It's a tool, not a status symbol.