Ethical and Moral Question: Do I continue to train this person?

[MTT TL]

Also in the walk away crowd for the reasons mentioned and others.

People in abusive relationships that refuse to leave also tend to have mental illness such as anxiety disorders, PTSD, Stockholm Syndrome and depression. Training someone who could potentially have a mental illness is fraught with hazards, legal issues and potential danger to yourself and the person affected.

 

[TunnelRat]

Also in the walk away crowd for the reasons mentioned and others.

People in abusive relationships that refuse to leave also tend to have mental illness such as anxiety disorders, PTSD, Stockholm Syndrome and depression. Training someone who could potentially have a mental illness is fraught with hazards, legal issues and potential danger to yourself and the person affected.

Per the CDC, in 2020 16.5% of Americans had taken some form of prescription for mental health in the past year. 20.3% had received any form of treatment for mental health. I don’t think stigmatizing 1/5 Americans is the solution to the problem with violence in this country any more than stigmatizing those that own firearms. There are plenty of people being treated for mental illness, including veterans, that can safely own and use firearms. If you don’t want to train them that’s your call.

 

[MTT TL]

I don’t think stigmatizing 1/5 Americans is the solution to the problem with violence in this country any more than stigmatizing those that own firearms. There are plenty of people being treated for mental illness, including veterans, that can safely own and use firearms. If you don’t want to train them that’s your call.

Price of tea in China and all that, 2020 was a pretty rough year for American and The World's mental health and there hasn't been much bounce back. There was a 20% rise in scripts in the US. Scripts also don't appear to be helping at all. The US still has the highest suicide and murder rates of any high income country. People who are depressed appear to commit suicide at much higher rates than people who are not depressed. Feel free to fact check that.

None of which was my point, which you seem to have convoluted about. My point was more along the lines of; I think if Chris Kyle could do it all over again he would probably do things differently.

 

[TunnelRat]

Price of tea in China and all that, 2020 was a pretty rough year for American and The World's mental health and there hasn't been much bounce back. There was a 20% rise in scripts in the US. Scripts also don't appear to be helping at all. The US still has the highest suicide and murder rates of any high income country. People who are depressed appear to commit suicide at much higher rates than people who are not depressed. Feel free to fact check that.

None of which was my point, which you seem to have convoluted about. My point was more along the lines of; I think if Chris Kyle could do it all over again he would probably do things differently.

Given that you brought up mental illness first, no this isn’t the price of tea in China. 2020 was a rough year, and for many it hasn’t gotten much better. A significant percentage of Americans were being treated for mental illness before then as well.

My point remains that just because a person is being treated for mental illness, doesn’t meant they’re going to shoot you, ala Chris Kyle (and to my knowledge Kyle had taken a number of veterans shooting before that without being shot). If you want to not train people because they are potentially experiencing a mental illness, then that remains your prerogative as I said.

 

[MTT TL]

Known of which was stigmatizing.

 

[dogtown tom]

I discussed this with a fellow teacher today. His after school job is running a martial arts school.

His comment was "would I stop teaching self defense skills to her....no. She needs my training more than ever."

 

[TunnelRat]

I assume you mean none, and that’s a matter of perspective.


This thread represents what is to me an interesting situation. I have taken a lot of courses over my years here. In recent years those courses required a background check. That would rule out criminal activity or involuntary commitment, but the reality is a background check is fairly limited. It won’t show what medications I am currently taking, whether or not I am seeing a therapist if not court appointed, and to an extent it likely wouldn’t capture associates with concerning behavior. In short, most of what this woman is going through would not be reported. The instructors I had would be none the wiser, and I personally can’t be sure that some of the students with which I attended those courses might not have been in the same boat as this woman. The OP has insight into their student that is, in my experience, rare.

If the argument is the personally safer choice is to end this woman’s instruction, I can see the logic behind that argument. I would also argue not training anyone, as you may well not know their background or current situation, is safer still.

 

[HiBC]

I might know how to replace a clutch on a 1963 Volvo. There are some jobs I can take on with confidence.

With my tools. Knowledge and experience it would be a bad idea,and irresponsible,to tear into your ZF Automatic transmission.

Its one thing to teach someone how to drill holes on location with a Glock.

Its another thing to teach when its probably lawful.But being a lawyer is a different dicipline. I'm not qualified to teach law. Or practice law.
I'm OK to say "No" to providing legal advice.

But she still might need a lawyer.

That raised black spot on your back might look angry to me,and I might suggest you show it to your Doctor. But I'm correct to say "No" to diagnosing or treating it.

The Woman has more than one problem.

You decide what help you can give her.

But the complex issues of bad and violent relationships and boundaries and saying "No" etc are their own whole professiom. And then some.

A pro SD course can integrate a more comprehensive program.

I don't know PAX who was staff here.I'd llke to think she could teach the hole drilling part AND refer our sublect to the counseling resources she needs.

 

[Dashunde]

Regardless of her tolerance, her patience, her gullibility.. is she still entitled to self-defense?
Does she deserve whatever she gets because she allowed him to come around?
What has she said or done to convey she is not worthy of defense and training?

Getting away from her cabal of a life makes complete sense from a personal "I don't want this drama in my realm" perspective, but stopping someone's training because they might need it someday doesn't make sense at all.

If you think she may go on the offensive, or otherwise commit a firearm-related crime of her own then by all means disconnect from her, but to kick her to the curb because she may someday properly use what you've taught her is pretty close to victim blaming.

 

[Scorpion8]

The one issue that everyone here glosses around is that she didn't ask you for life counseling, she asked for firearms training. If you changed the tire on a neighbors vehicle and they went out and did a hit and run are you liable? Yea, I know the arguments about firearms liability (an NRA trainer myself for many years) but as long as you stick to firearms proficiency and skirt any personal counseling, all you're providing is the tool. We run around saying "Guns don't kill people, people do" and now you're wanting to take away the gun by not providing the option/training.

Maybe in your training you can emphasize the hard decisions needed to actually use a weapon in self-defense.

 

[shafter]

Domestic situations are extremely complicated and the easy answer to give as a third party is to walk away from the bad relationship but its seldom that simple.

I'm not sure how I would proceed in this situation. If I genuinely believed that someone needed self defense training to protect themselves regardless of who from, I would likely help them, or at least point them to where they could get the training they needed. If I had an inkling that they wanted to use the training for unlawful reasons or without a full understanding of the legalities then I'd steer clear.

Historically women use deadly force in relationships as a last resort after years of severe abuse whereas men will turn to deadly force much sooner if he thinks she's cheating or leaving.

 

[OPC]

I believe it would be ok ethically to continue training her in basic marksmanship and safe handling practices.

But also, I would recommend strongly suggesting it is time for her to take a self-defense course with an emphasis on legalities and consequences of the using a firearm in self-defense.

 

[Rhodester]

Discontinue all contact with her. This looks like a situation where there is no good outcome.

 

[Ricklin]

Can you continue to train her, and leave the rest at the door? I think not, as you already know far more than the person only responsible for her marksmanship training really should know or perhaps ought to know. I might also assume that she has shared all this with you. I kinda doubt you beat it out of her...
For that reason alone, I would refer her to someone else for training.

 

[stinkeypete]

The solution to every problem is not a firearm. This woman needs help from a domestic abuse councilor.

As a friend, you could research the resources she needs to get her head straight around the complex issues of domestic violence.

It should be recognized that this woman is in close proximity to a violent felon addicted to alcohol. Introducing a firearm into that mix increases the likelihood of a negative outcome.

As a good person, you would like to help. This is a case where the wise person offers the help of qualified mental health professionals and backs very far away from any relationship with that person until they take steps to get their head straight.

You might offer to keep her firearm safe and secure until she has left the guy. Since she won't leave him, chances are she won't defend herself with deadly force. Bluffing may result in her gun being taken by a violent drunk. Or that drunk may find it around the house.

Grim stuff. My daughter managed to break the habit of addict boyfriends. It was a spooky few years.

 

[HiBC]

Well said, Stinkypete!

You pulled it all together.

 

[Ricklin]

Nice post stinkeypete, a solution is always preferable.

 

[5whiskey]

Can you continue to train her, and leave the rest at the door? I think not, as you already know far more than the person only responsible for her marksmanship training really should know or perhaps ought to know. I might also assume that she has shared all this with you. I kinda doubt you beat it out of her...
For that reason alone, I would refer her to someone else for training.

You know, I was just about to jump in and offer a defense for continuing to train this young lady. There is no indication that she has done anything unlawful, or even morally inappropriate. Sure, she is perpetuating her domestic issues... but at the end of the day she doesn't sound like someone who I would have grave concerns over teaching basic marksmanship. I understand there may be a greater instructor/student liability if OP is teaching SD with firearms professionally. But I think we were all making a fairly drastic assumption that the training involves little more than marksmanship.

Then I read this, and was jolted into realizing that this is a more complex issue. If it were just a long term friend you were teaching fundamentals of markmanship to, I still don't see a major concern with continuing teaching basic fundamentals of marksmanship. As others have said, however, there is stress on you for seeing someone else go through that when they won't help themselves. Lots of domestic victims do end up distancing friends and family, and it would be understandable if you kept distance. For a few reasons, really. Many people just can't bear to watch a loved one endure such conditions. Other times, abusive spouses/significant others force the abused to quit close relationships. It's easier to continue abuse when the victim is frightened, alienated, and alone. So for personal reasons reaching beyond liability, you still may choose to cut ties.

But if you are offering ANY form of professional training, even if it's as simple as firearms marksmanship and familiarization, then you have been told WAY too much about this young ladies life. That knowledge takes you out of the instructor/student realm. And if that was the original engagement terms (instructor/student), you have blown way past them. It's time to cut ties.

 

[tango1niner]

Her thinking is obviously being influenced by emotion and is not rational. If she is not thinking rationally should she even have access to a firearm?

 

[Ricklin]

I am not law enforcement. That said everything I read and hear, the call out for a domestic violence situation is the worst of the worst for officer safety.

Your white horse is in the shop OP, refer the young lady elsewhere. If there were ever a time where the words no good can come from this are apropos, this would be it.