Elevator

[JoeBlackSpade]

Well, despite your best efforts, this IS scenario number 2,354,802.

Which is O.K. by me. I enjoy these mental exercises.


First, you are in a confined space: Escape is not possible.

Second, you have a bad guy with a knife. This warrants deadly force. If you had time to draw and "brandish", you should have time to squeeze the trigger. IF somehow the BG dropped his knife and suddenly became instantly compliant, then yes, get him on the ground, face down. Tell him to cross his ankles, put his arms behind his back, stand as far away as possible, keep the weapon sighted in.


In a close-combat scenario, use your free hand to create an additional barrier between you and the perp; this is a quick "pushing" motion, with your palm open and facing the perpetrator. The extended arm buys you an extra 2 feet, and the open palm OBSCURES the ATTACKER's vision. In a sense, you are sacrificing that hand. You should also blade your body, so that your torso is almost between the attacker and the firearm. As you assume this bladed position, you should draw up, and rotate the pistol, while keeping it tucked close to your chest. If done correctly, your elbow should jut straight back, and the pistol will be almost up in your armpit, with the muzzle/line of fire going across your chest. From here, you can fire in survival mode, while keeping the firearm out of reach of the perp.

Third, pull the fire alarm in the elevator, with your free hand.


If the door opens, and you can see anyone, tell them to call the police.


In real life, two men in an elevator, one with a knife, and the other with a gun, someone's probably going to die. When I train someone regarding a knife encounter, the first thing I tell them to accept is "You will get cut. Accept that. Be comfortable with that. You can be cut and survive. Protect your vital areas and be ruthless and violent in your response."

One can only hope for the best, and prepare for the worst.

 

[Samurai]

My technique is operating within the parameters of the original post:

Let's even bring it to the point where you have properly brandished your gun, you are confident and steady. He has now dropped his knife, but is looking around the elevator - looking at the control box, etc.

My recommended course of action is based on the premise that you've already got your gun out, and the bad guy has dropped his weapon. Now, you're in the elevator, at close range, holding the bad guy at gunpoint, and there's an uncontrolled weapon on the floor. At this point, curl up in the corner (see previous post).

As far as getting your own gun out, that's opening a can of worms that, in my opinion, would be off-topic. There are a MYRIAD of different ways to carry a pistol, and an even GREATER number of ways to draw while controlling a close-range assailant. To discuss them all would take NUMEROUS threads, and it would bring us up around "scenario #3,984,206."

Suffice to say, you want to get your gun out BEFORE you hit the floor. It'll be much harder to get it out once on the floor (unless you carry in an ankle holster). You especially don't want to end up in a situation where you're sitting or lying on your own weapon, thereby trapping it from being drawn.

 

[JoeBlackSpade]

Samurai, I think your technique is perfect for the non-physical type, the small-framed, or those with limited range of motion.

You are totally right when you say "this isn't about being pretty, its about survival".

For me, that is the overriding principle- SURVIVAL.

 

[Tanzer]

My whole idea here was to put forth a no-easy-answer situation. I had been thinking that there'd be little to no chance of getting out unscathed.
Joe Black Spade - Yes, that hand is going to get mauled, better a hand than a kidney. What you say makes sense.
One thing I remember from MA training; You want to do the last thing your attacker thinks you would do, even if it seems crazy. That leads into what Samurai said. Gotta admit, the BG would be momentarily baffled, and that may be all you need. Also, not many vests (if indeed they had one) cover from below. I'm not against putting his genetals on the ceiling. I hadn't thought of hitting the floor, but that's what I'm thinking now.
There are VERY few instances where I'd shoot immediately, but here, I'm thinking I'd empty the mag a quarter second after the barrel cleared the holster.

 

[David Armstrong]

But what if what he wants is your wallet and your life?

That changes things quite a bit, which is why I said “Give the BG what he wants, assuming it is property.” If he wants your life, chances are you’re already dead or dying. Just how much reaction time do you think you will have in the confines of the typical elevator? Remember in the scenario offered the BG has already pulled the knife/ knucks and is a big guy. Do you think that trying to quickdraw and shoot him is a particularly good option at this point?

Sure, give him what he wants... rely on his "mercy".

Yes, just like you do virtually every time you get on an elevator. We rely on the mercy of others not to kill us in tightly closed areas where we have limited mobility, and we do it on a regular basis. If you are already that far behind the curve, the best odds are to continue to rely on that mercy instead of start a fight that you have probably lost already.

And giving the BG what he wants is certainly no guarantee than he will not kill you anyway.

True. But it has a much better chance than getting into a life or death fight with the BG.

How many times have we seen a person comply, only to be killed anyway?

Far, far fewer than when the person has not complied.

Besides, in a senario like this one, what are the odds that the guy is just a common mugger?

Far better odds than that the guy is a crazed murderer who wants to kill you in a small space and then walk around with your blood sprayed all over him, I would think.

 

[David Armstrong]

So, remember: Curl into a ball, back to the corner.

Recognizing and acknowledging your initial response was specifically for the original scenario, would the same action be appropriate in the BG has knife out and is threatening me scene?
Just out of curiosity, do you think the BG will just stand back and let you back into a corner, drop down, curl up, and grab a weapon? And what is your response if as you are trying to back, drop, curl and draw he closes on you and is already inside your guard?

 

[Samurai]

David,

The answer to your question is, "Yes." With a slight modification, your goal with your non-weapon hand is to block (perhaps, take a cut from) the bad guy's knife. Provided the cut is limited to your non-weapon hand, this is a "peripheral injury" which can be treated at a hospital later. (Again, survival, not "staying pretty.") With your non-weapon hand, just grab at the knife, and try to get it under control, even for a moment. With your weapon hand, draw.

After that, fall backwards on the floor, shooting upwards. This will give you the distance you need from your attacker, and it will minimize the target area you present to your attacker for knife striking. You want to fall backwards, AWAY from your attacker, and you want to keep the gun pulled in close to your chest (your hara, if you're into the whole "eastern-thing").

I know. Like I said before, this sounds REALLY crazy. But, try it with a friend (unloaded guns only for partners practice). You'll find that it works pretty well! The damage the bad guy will do to you (and, yes, he WILL do some damage) will be limited to non life-threatening areas, and you will be able to empty your weapon into his center of mass.

(One word of warning: If you try to fall backwards in a cramped elevator, WATCH YOUR HEAD! Think about just sitting down, and pushing backwards. Don't just fall and let your head hit the floor/walls!)

 

[Groundhog]

Oh to be a fly on the wall when the elevator door opens on a crowded floor in the middle of that practice, hehehe...

 

[Tanzer]

If he wants your life, chances are you’re already dead or dying. Just how much reaction time do you think you will have in the confines of the typical elevator? Remember in the scenario offered the BG has already pulled the knife/ knucks and is a big guy. Do you think that trying to quickdraw and shoot him is a particularly good option at this point?

Yes it is. Respectfully, David (I've always respected your opnions) I'm not going down without a fight. Just as someone you have mortally wounded can continue to fight, the reverse holds true also. Yes, he has the upper hand, but it ain't over 'till it's over. If I can get to the trigger, he's getting all the lead I can deliver.
The confines of the elevator means reaction time sucks, but that's not a reason to just hope for the best. I'd do anything to surprise him, including screaming like a girl, a head butt (normally a bad idea, but desperate times call for drastic measures), stomping on his foot, Telling him I have 10K in my car's trunk, asking him if he likes horses, whatever comes to mind, but trying to drop his guard. Anything to drop his guard. Maybe it won't work, but I'm going to try.
I left out martial arts because I wanted to focus primarily on a really bad situation where you need to pull a rabbit out of a hat, but I don't see doing nothing as a viable option.

 

[Hardtarget]

To be caught in this situation would be "a raw deal"...but don't just lay down and die! Remember...we're not sheep. If I'm going to die, I HOPE its like a man!

Mark.

The thing that would really be bad...what if your wife or child is with you?

 

[threegun]

Another time buying defensive position against a knife attack (especially in a confined area) is to get down on your back and use your legs. They are much longer, your feet usually have shoes to protect against cuts, and they can deliver a stiff blow from distance. This allows the bulk of your vitals to remain protected by the floor, walls, and of course your legs.

Pray you don't use an ankle holster LOL.

Draw and fire ASAP.

 

[Samurai]

Excellent point, treegun. Legs are longer than arms, so you can get more distance from your attacker by pushing off with your feet.

Only one thing to remember: After the fight is over, and you've brought down your assailant, you eventually want to walk to the nearest hospital and get your cuts treated. If you extend your legs upward, toward your attacker, while you shoot, you may "shoot yourself in the foot," no pun intended. By comparison, if you can use your non-weapon arm to push off the attacker, and you shoot yourself in the non-weapon hand, then you keep your legs in tact for eventual flight.

This is a decision that is fact-specific to the particular elevator you are in. Is it a place where people will soon find you? Can you count on others to call an ambulance? Or, are you all alone? Are you going to need to walk out of there?

Important questions to weigh...

 

[newerguy]

You are in say, an elevator or similar situation where flight is not an option, at least for a minute or so. A true BG pulls a knife or brass knuckles etc (the situation if he gets the jump on you with a gun is too obvious). You have your weapon, but no cuffs, because you are not a LEO. You are the only two there, and he's big enough that even if you subdue him, you can't just sit on him, and you're not a blackbelt, or too long in the tooth to use twenty year old training (I hate to be so narrow, but I don't want to leave it open to things like; hook kick, roundhouse, then full Nelson).

I think this is another example of a case where some people believe a gun is their first, last, and best tool for self-defense, and other don't. I propose that, under the circumstances described here: 1) you and one other guy in an elevator; 2) he's got an edged or impact weapon drawn; 3) he's decided to attack you and not just rob you; and 4) you are armed with a concealed handgun, that you handgun is not you best choice due to the distances involved. You aren't going to be able to draw fast enough and you are going to be at risk of being disarmed. BTW, while the OP states that the response to a similar situation where the bad guy is armed with a handgun is "obvious", I'm not sure that it is. I'm going to stick with the same answer as for a knife, you've got to get your hands on him.

Dropping to the ground and kicking at him might buy enough time for the elevator door to open, and you might hope that he's runs, or there is someone there to scare him off. Otherwise, you need to either drop him, or get control of his weapon hand. Depending on the circumstances, you might be able to fend off their attack while drawing and shooting, but I'd be a little reluctant to try that, because it's hard to really get control of someones arm with one hand, and if your draw takes to long they'll kill you anyway. Get him on the ground, kick away the weapon, if he's holding it, stomp on his hand or wrist, and keep fighting until the door opens, then bolt, then call 911. If you can keep control of the guy on the ground, then yell for help as soon as the door opens.

An armed encounter in a confined space, like an elevator is a real bad situation. Hand to hand fighting with a guy whose armed opens you up to getting hurt badly if you are in real fear of you life, you have to fight your way out, understanding that being cut, disfigured or disabled is better than being dead. Look at number three (3) in my summary of the case. I'm still of the mind that it's better to get robbed of some case and credit cards than to be killed, stabed, or arrested for killing a robber. A lot of times cooperating is the best stratagy.

 

[Tanzer]

Thanks for the hearty discussion. Admittedly, I've shifted gears as the thread matured. I want to make it clear that I originally put so many restrictions on the scenario because I've seen so many go off topic. I am honestly very interested in learning about this TYPE of situation. It's really quite okay to change bits & pieces for argument's sake. I just didn't want to go off on tangents like "well, if all I had was my mousegun..." I think you get the gist. Major Issues - Confined quarters, obvious and capable threat, good reason to believe you will be harmed, no help coming for at least a minute. I confined it to gun use because Tactics & Training is a gun forum. I think I got a lot of what I wanted; good discourse from knowlegeable folks instead of wiseguy armchair know it alls (the ones I have in mind didn't respond) telling me that I should have known better than to be on the elevator.
Thank you for reasonble conversation.

I hope it goes further. I however, am closing down the boat and heading for my 42 acre getaway in Maine. I'll check in once in a while from my "neighbor's" house half a mile away, but for the most part, I'll be off 'till September. I keep it computer-free as a last bastion of a lifestyle forgotten.
Man, I am bringing SO much ammo ...

 

[JoeBlackSpade]

Must be nice....


Enjoy the fresh clean air, and the SILENCE!

I'm going to do a little romping around in Wekiva park here in Florida myself this weekend. No ammo, though, as its a wildlife preserve.

 

[Groundhog]

Rough life you got there Tanzer!

For you guys that know how to defend against the knife attack in this situation, I have a question. Given that two possible defensive positions have been discussed. One using arms and the other legs. Which one would you be less likely to be stuck in an artery that could cause you to bleed out fast should the BG knife you in one of your limbs? I'd like to think that should you get cut in your forearm that it would be easier to stop the bleeding if you were by yourself but I'm only guessing.

 

[threegun]

For starters unarmed knife defense is very very bad if the bad guy knows anything about knife fighting. The little bit of knowledge I have will leave almost anyone cut and the untrained cut real bad. Each slash designed to eliminate the use of body parts, disembowel, or sever major arteries. I don't even want to think about fighting bare handed against a trained knife fighter gives me the hebegebies.

If you use your legs to defend you must be aware of the femoral artery. It runs along the inside of your leg. If severed death comes within minutes.

If I had a weapon to bring to bare and just needed time (behind in the reactionary curve but bad guy wants me dead so no chance of compliance) I would use my legs and shoot from my back........no question. The legs can take alot of cuts without serious damage. They can and will keep distance for you. If the bad guy screws up and eats a thrust from a leg it will help you win. Bottom line is while he hacks at your feet and lower legs you draw and fire. A mistake with your weak hand standing and he gets your vitals.

 

[JoeBlackSpade]

A fight goes down blazing fast, and a knife fight even faster.

Bare knuckle to bare knuckle fighters are going to square off for a moment, after which, one side may charge in swinging.

With a knife, there's often less hesitation because of the confidence that holding a weapon instills. A knife fighter with skills is truly dangerous at close range. Anyone facing you with a knife should be ASSUMED to have this kind of skill.

I don't see the extremely close distances involved allowing anything but an immediate reflex response resembling a palm-heel strike to buy you about 2 feet to fire.

The position of crouching down on the ground may or may not be practical, and may interfere with drawing. To draw and THEN drop down might be difficult.

When training, I want to teach (and learn!) techniques that are based on the natural reaction that you are going to have. From there, I prefer to build on those tendencies and refine them. That is the reason the techniques I've posted are as they are. They have also been USED by law enforcement. Some of the techniques that I'll be posting in other threads were taught to me by FBI HRT in Virginia, and in Maryland.

In any case, neither your arms OR your legs will protect you for very long against a trained knife fighter. A trained knife fighter will use the knife to sever ligaments, rendering your muscles USELESS.

I also taught knife fighting to Marines. If I am using a knife to disable someone, I'm using the "ice pick" grip (blade down, running outward and along my forearm), and my opponent's arms will be incapacitated, with one strike each. The third strike will be a downwards thrust into the torso, somewhere between the neck and clavicle.

That means if you are facing a guy like me in an elevator, you've got one free strike to your weak-side arm. The second strike will render you completely unable to draw.

When I adopt- or teach a technique to engage an armed opponent, I imagine what will stop a TRAINED fighter.

Anything less is a waste of time. An untrained fighter, hacking and slashing your free hand will hurt you severely, but you should be able to sacrifice it, while you draw and fire. A trained fighter will be much more efficient, using less strikes- but each one more effective. A trained fighter will get INSIDE, where he can kill. This is why I recommend getting SPACE, with a quick powerful palm heel, and then drawing like your life depends on it (no pun intended).

 

[threegun]

Joe, I don't like the icepick grip. It makes me have to get closer to my opponent to slash. My technique is front hand holds knife. Knife is straight out thumb on top, four fingers on bottom. Rear or weak hand is up in cover mode. Legs are ready if needed to stop a rush (side or front kick or movement). Then proceed to slash value targets as often as available. Never ever give up on a target simply because it isn't a tendon or artery. Slash everything that gets close and keep your distance. As long as you keep making cuts without getting locked up you are winning.

My bare knuckle technique is run like heck LOL. My real knife fighting technique is run like Ben Johnson LOL. Getting to old for fighting. Heck getting to old for running. Thank God for Gaston Glock.

 

[JoeBlackSpade]

Threegun, you have a sort of modified Bowie stance.

Anything with a strong range and a heavy blade can be held that way.

Something like a survival-sized knife/ k-bar, or even a standard bayonet, however, isn't going to have enough kinetic energy to inflict damage on an opponent using his arms to block you. Slashing strikes will eventually disable someone, but not as quickly.

The ice-pick sacrifices range- true. It makes up for that in penetration power- something neglected by many trainers. When I trained Marines, I was training them for specific things, including silent removal of an enemy sentry/guard, where the lungs or heart had to be punctured- and the sentry may have been wearing multiple layers of clothing. If the heart was penetrated, the target would die almost immediately. If the lungs were penetrated, the target would not be able to generate any vocal alarm/alert, since the air pressure build up in the lungs would be expelled through the wound, rendering them unable to generate enough force to vibrate the vocal chords.

It probably sounds grotesque, I know, but war is hell on earth.

In any case, I don't teach knife fighting to civilians, and I only draw on that knowledge for the purpose of DEFENSE against knife attacks.