Elbow in the air

[BlueTrain]

I have seen a few photographs, mostly in old books, of rifle shooters in a standing position with their elbow held in an almost exaggerated high position. Why is that? I don't recall anything being mentioned about doing that in basic training about 45 years ago with an M14. And I'm sure it isn't possible with a rifle that has a pistol grip, nor is it commonly assumed (I assume) in any other position, such as prone or sitting. I suppose it is possible when kneeling, though.

Is it possible that it is because the higher (shooting) arm creates more of a "pocket" for the rifle butt or because the position might tend to pull the rifle harder into the shoulder? One such photo even showed the shooter, using a 1903 Springfield, gripping the stock with his left hand well forward of the sling. Just curious because it is one of those questions that pops into my head now and then.

 

[MLeake]

I've read...

... that this was to provide lateral stability with the trigger hand arm, and vertical stability with the forend hand arm.

l've tried it, but found it awkward.

Mostly, the positions I find work best for me tend to involve natural body positioning, and use of skeletal support vs muscular support. (Keeping the forend hand closer in, resting that elbow against my rib cage, etc.)

 

[kraigwy]

You can teach an old dog new tricks

I have been shooting for more years then I would like to remember. Shot competition for over 35 years, mostly rifle.

I have always raised the elbow high thinking it locks the stock in the shoulder.

I've coached rifle shooting, I've taught rifle shooters, ran sniper schools, taught rifle shooting to swat team, taught Jr Small Bore programs, etc etc.

I taught the "raising the elbow theory" forever.

Last Sept I went to the CMP GSM Master Instructor's course taught by Gary Anderson. If you don't know who Gary Anderson is, he's an Olympic Gold Medalist in Rifle. A long time ago he set the record for Standing in ISU 300 Meter Shooting. That record stands today.

Mr. Anderson if the E.F. Hutton of the shooting world, if he talks, people listen.

Well at the MI course he corrected me. Saying the elbow should be dropped in a natural, comfortable position.

I have stressed for years that "relaxing" is a shooting fundamental that is too often over looked, yet I was practicing and teaching the opposite. You can't be relaxed if you are cocking your elbow up. It takes muscles and using muscles to hold a rifle in any position is a no no. You need to be relaxed, even your shooting elbow needs to be relaxed.

I've been working on changing, its hard after so many years of doing it wrong, but I'm starting to see that Mr. Anderson is correct.

The elbow should be dropped at a natural, relaxed position.

Proving you can teach an old dog new tricks.

 

[KLRANGL]

I believe it is called the chicken wing

I have always been taught that it is to be avoided, for a number of reasons...

 

[nathaniel]

My dad taught me to shoot my muzzleloader with the support arm straight under the barrel and not really holding the forend just make a cradle that the stock sits in and hold your shooting arm as high as you can get it and still be comfortable. Dont know why but Ive tried shooting the thing the way I shoot my other rifles and I cant hit squat. But it is uncomfortable and awkward. But any time I pick up my smoke pole I naturally hold it that way.

 

[BlueTrain]

I wonder if the rifle itself tends to suggest one form over another, or shotgun, for that matter. I seem to recall that the old style straight stock shotguns lent themselves to a certain style or position when shooting, while the more contemporary pistol grip style shotguns lent themselves to another. But I'm probably not remembering enough detail. Even so, I was surprised to the photo of the man with what looks like an AK with his elbow well up.

I'd have to say that any shooting position is "half-relaxed," which is a strange way of putting it, I admit. But you're supposed to take a deep breath and then let half of it out. Or something like that.

In the most recent photo I'm thinking of, which was from a pre-WWI book on rifle shooting by Townsend Whelen, it was even more curious to see the supporting hand gripping the stock so far forward, almost with a straight arm. I guess they weren't teaching relaxed shooting then, as if you could relax in combat.

 

[Tim R]

I think Bluetrain might have touched on what I do. If I'm shooting a M-1, M14/M-1A I raise my right elbow. If I'm shooting a AR, I keep my right elbow down and close to my body. Works for me for the offhand stage.

 

[Scorch]

That is an "old school" shooting style, much like you see old pictures of pistol shooters with their hand on one hip, heels together and the pistol held straight out to the side at eye level. With straight grip rifles it works well, but the more of a pistol grip the rifle has, the lower the elbow position you assume naturally, and elbow high with an AR style pistol grip is not relaxed. If you have any straight grip rifles or shotguns, give it a try and compare it to a pistol grip rifle. Like kraigwy says, we were taught it and we taught it, but never really stopped to ask why.

 

[Flatbush Harry]

Following up on Kraig's excellent post, I was taught, as a mere stripling, that the elbow was kept raised when shooting with a shotgun, to ensure a more stable swing with the shotgun, but that, when firing a rifle, the elbow was kept in a lower, natural position to ensure a bone-on-bone brace for sitting, kneeling and bench shooting positions. I also discovered that a lower elbow felt more natural and comfortable standing.

All that said, Kraig's training and experience are absolutely first rate, and, while gratified that Gary Anderson, up there with Ltc. Lones Wigger as one of our country's greatest shooters, says my daddy was right after all, when in doubt, I'll defer to Kraig and the way they do things north of the CO border.

Cheers,

FH

 

[BlueTrain]

I'm not at all sure of the difference on the shoulder, though I've read comments about it, but some rifles used to come with a distinct crescent shaped butt, while some came with what was sometimes referred to as a shotgun butt. Of course some dedicated target rifles have an exaggerated hook at the butt. I don't know if any of these different styles might have affected the shooting style with regard to the non-support arm.

 

[4EVERM-14]

For some shooters, myself included, raising the elbow helps bring the gun to the face allowing for a more erect position and better balance. As kraigwy posted a relaxed set up is best. But if that can be accomplished by raising the elbow without muscle strain it could be a benefit. Exaggerating the position,as in KLRANGLE's chicken wing picture, looks like an unbalanced unstable position. Of course the ultimate goal is success. Whatever it takes to create consistent high scores and huge X-counts even if it looks uncomfortable.

 

[Slamfire]

I have been shooting for more years then I would like to remember. Shot competition for over 35 years, mostly rifle.

You are virtually a spring chicken. You have to be a very old rooster to know why the elbows are not touching the body.

If you shot in competition up to the early 60's, you were not allowed to touch your body standing, with your elbow.

Those were the Army rules, they thought it represented "Combat" better, and since they had the big vote, that is what was enforced on the firing line.

So where do you put your elbow?, well all sorts of places. High was good enough for many.

The Army also required you to load from your cartridge belt.

 

[thesheepdog]

Proper use is a 90 degree angle. I prefer i bit lower than that.

 

[44 AMP]

I may not be "doing it right"...

And I don't shoot competition, so my opinion is only good for me.

But high is where my elbow goes. It just feels natural to me. And since I generally hit what I aim at (or close at least) it works for me.

The only time I was ever questioned about it was in Basic Training. The DI on the range yelled at me (they always yell) "Who taught you to shoot like that, Trainee?!!!!" I answered, "My Father, Drill Sargent!"

Since my groups were smaller, and my score better than anyone else in the company, he paused a moment (which I dreaded), and then said "Alright, keep doing it!"

Other trainees, he chewed out and told them to keep their elbows down!

 

[wogpotter]

FWIW that is a U.S. technique.

It works well as long as you have a U.S. issued rifle. (no surprise there I guess) Now I wasn't trained in the U.S. & I didn't use U.S. equipment during training either for obvious reasons.
Surprise when I use U.S. rifles ( like the M1a) I find the high elbow works, but when I use other rifles (like my #4) It reeks.

Based on that I think it may just be a combination of technique & equipment. It's a bit like the bent knee prone trick that was popular for a while, that only works with some hardware as well.

 

[HiBC]

My 2 cents:A most important truth about shooting offhand is the head must be in a natural erect position.The reason why is the litle ball of bone that rolls around in our inner ear.It is the bubble level of our balance.If we bring our face down to the rifle,it tilts our head,and we become more wobbly.
Rifle stocks have changed since the old timers.Scopes have somewhat reploaced iron sights.The ergonomics of shooting change,and so subtleties of position change.A Hawken,a Win 92 rifle,a single shot falling block,etclikely will rise to the eyes of a shooter,place the butt on his shoulder,and cheekweld all at the same time,often with the elbow raised.
Another interesting thing,we use cheekweld,the old timers,with the rifle geometry they had,often used more of a jaw weld,lower on the face.There is a Ned Roberts* book,the title is something like "The Breechloading Single Shot Rifle" It has a chapter that profiles each of the noted shooters of the day in their unique winning offhand style with a sketch.Good stuff!
Also,offhand shooting for target or game is different than engaging targets that shoot back.
*.257 Roberts,in case it doesn't ring a bell.

 

[DnPRK]

I was taught the "chicken wing" creates a natural pocket that provides a very repeatable position for the buttplate. Accuracy requires repeatability.

 

[Ridge_Runner_5]

The opposing chicken wing is all the rage nowadays...

 

[Duckboat Brown]

Very good thread. I've been taught as a child to raise the elbow, and also in markmanship training as a GI. I've always wondered if the dropped elbow is a evolutionary development born of necessity with modern close-quarters combat?

 

[BlueTrain]

A lot that was written about combat shooting was written by people who had never been in combat. Of those who had and later wrote about it, some had strong words about the way things were done, although I doubt any so much as mentioned what to do with your elbow (as long as you knew what it was). Rifle sights, for example, came in for some criticism and by WWII peep sights were found on most new British and American made army rifles. Most of the writing I'm referring to was from between the wars (WWI and WWII, between those wars, that is). But I haven't been reading all that much new stuff lately.

Who stands up straight to shoot in combat anyway?