Effect Of Muzzle Devices On Accuracy

[44caliberkid]

Have any of you done a side by side comparison of accuracy with and without a brake, comp, flash hider attached. Does attachment of a muzzle device always effect the group, always negatively, not at all, better? My AR 308 shoots great and I have a brake that matches the handguard profile, but I don't want to put it on if it's going to mess up my accuracy.

 

[pturner67]

I see no change in accuracy out of my AR-15 and AR-47 using a brake. Only change I notice is less muzzle rise. One muzzle brake I have, the lantac dragon, is blasty but really effective.

 

[TXAZ]

Any weight added to the end of the barrel (such as a suppressor or brake) will change the point of impact, generally down with more weight.
If I put the (5 lb) QDL suppressor on my 29” barrel M107A1 the point of impact is substantial lower at long ranges (1000 yards) (the suppress doesn’t materially change the muzzle velocity but 5 lbs on the end of a barrel will slightly bend it.

 

[zukiphile]

Have any of you done a side by side comparison of accuracy with and without a brake, comp, flash hider attached.

Yes.

Does attachment of a muzzle device always effect the group, always negatively, not at all, better?

No, not always. The position of weight on the barrel can serve to tune it; that's exactly what a tuner does.

If your muzzle device acts as a badly out of adjustment tuner, the effect will be negative. My experience is that a MD usually makes accuracy worse, but a device can make accuracy better.

My AR 308 shoots great and I have a brake that matches the handguard profile, but I don't want to put it on if it's going to mess up my accuracy.

I don't know another way to see what your device will do to accuracy.

 

[SHR970]

Yes, I have added devices to two of my guns.

My ChiCom SKS did not have any noticeable effect.

My 195 Series Mini-14 Ranch: the groups tightened up quite a bit with several different flavors of ammo.

Short answer is YMMV.

 

[ed308]

My accuracy usually improves, especially with larger calibers like .308. Recoil sensitive. I've only had one rifle where accuracy suffered. But once I replaced the device with another one, the accuracy returned to what it was.

 

[Shadow9mm]

This is some killer stuff on tuning barrels, there are several videos, but video 3 about 3min in is where you want to start for tuning the barrel harmonics by timing your muzzle device.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgXgPJZDFYE&list=PLTTrjvDib94nU_tm8sminzz9KFhBCKJA4&index=3

 

[FrankenMauser]

I haven't noticed much change with brakes and flash hiders.

I have tested bare barrel vs muzzle brakes / flash hiders vs suppressor with a few rifles. There was no measurable difference between bare barrel and the brakes/FHs at short range (100-200 yd), statistically.

Suppressors, however, always change the POI on my rifles. Always.
It is usually predictable and repeatable, but sometimes not.

Group size doesn't change much (though usually for the better, if it does), but the impact does shift.
It may be a minor shift, like with my 6.5-284 Norma, its stupidly heavy barrel, and a shift of only about 5/8" at 100 yd.
Or it may be more substantial.

The most extreme combination in my safes is a SilencerCo Harvester .300 on my 19" barrel .270 Win Ruger M77 Mk II. POI shifts about 8" down and 1-4" left at 100 yards with the suppressor attached. (The windage shift is not predictable, other than being in that range. )

So, come August or September each year, the suppressor gets screwed on tight. The scope is re-zeroed for hunting season. And they don't come apart again until hunting season is over. (By which point, I usually have a backlog of things waiting for that suppressor to be available again, because the other Harvester was also screwed tight to something else, like the 6.5-284.)

 

[cw308]

I had a muzzle brake installed on me benchrest 308 , I shoot off a bi pod and rear bag , It shoots more accurate do to less recoil , enables you to concentrate on form as recoil fades away . My rifle shot accurate before and more with .5 at 200 yards 10 shot groups. What brake did you go with?

 

[Bart B.]

When the 7.62 NATO M14NM rifles were shooting commercial 308 Winchester match ammo in the rain, accuracy degradation lowered scores. After their flash hider was reamed out, bullets were no longer hitting rain drops changing direction.

Some nerds at matches challenged those rifles were not legal because they were modified. Referees allowed them because it was an internal modification, not an external one.

 

[Bart B.]

Have any of you done a side by side comparison of accuracy with and without a brake, comp, flash hider attached. Does attachment of a muzzle device always effect the group, always negatively, not at all, better? My AR 308 shoots great and I have a brake that matches the handguard profile, but I don't want to put it on if it's going to mess up my accuracy.

Anything that changes the muzzle axis vibration characteristics changes accuracy. Whether or not you'll notice the change depends on the stuff shot and your marksmanship skills.

 

[stagpanther]

Changes--or makes it inherently worse? Changes--yes, inherently worse--don't think so.

 

[cw308]

Bart B
Rain, I don't shoot if wind is higher then10. Almost like shooting indoors . I never shot in competition matches , I don't think muzzle brake are allowed , and I'm pretty sure I couldn't shoot as good without one . Both a good trigger and a brake made the most important in my group size. If shooting for accuracy and your not thinking of competing give everything a try without doing permanent changes to your firearm. I have a friend that ordered a brake that attached to the barrel ( clamp on type ) not threaded , stays in position and works just as good as mine. Witt Machine Tool Co.

 

[Bart B.]

Changes--or makes it inherently worse? Changes--yes, inherently worse--don't think so.

If the muzzle velocity spread causes a 1 MOA spread in bullet drop at target range, the tuner must be positioned such that slowest bullets leave on a LOF angle 1 MOA higher above the LOS than the fastest ones. All bullets have to leave on the bore axis upswing at the right place, typically near the high point.

Change the frequency by moving the weight at the muzzle degrades accuracy.

Remember one setting fully compensates at one range. Each range requires a different position of that weight on the muzzle.

 

[Bart B.]

CW308, have you ever gone through a "ball and dummy" exercise?

By the time a brake starts slowing down the rifle recoil velocity, bullets are several inches past the muzzle.

Without the brake, you're flinching and moving the LOS and LOF direction in addition to normal LOF and LOS movement during barrel time, after pulling the trigger flicking the finger away before the bullet leaves the barrel. Learn how to hold still and the trigger back for a few thousandths of a second after the trigger sear releases the firing pin. The bullet's gone by then you can flinch and move the barrel as much as you want.

Once training a new shooter on a military team shooting 600 yards in prone, I noticed him flinching every time he fired the Garand. I layed down close to him commenting his position held the rifle very still but he flinched every shot causing the 3 foot group on target. Asked him to let me pinch the trigger while he loaded and aimed the rifle.

His/our next 10 shots were well inside the 12 inch 10 ring, 5 in the 6 inch X ring.

 

[cw308]

Bart B
I use to load a few dummy rounds mixed in to the rounds I was shooting that day to see how much I moved off target , I've been shooting with the same rifle all these years it's become a part of me . I do hold the trigger to the rear and I move with the stock , similar to roll with the punch . The other rifles I shoot are the CZ 452 Varmint in 22lr. and Colt AR15 HBar in 223/5.56 I haven't felt recoil in years. If recoil sensitive the brake will help him to battle the flinch and concentrate on form. I found a natural cheek well with the light touch at the rear of the stock , thumb resting to the side , I'm a left handed shooter , right hand resting on the rear bag , left eye dominant.right hand bolt guns.

 

[Bart B.]

If anyone is recoil sensitive and flinches in anticipation of it, the brake will not help him to battle the flinch and concentrate on techniques. There's no instantaneous feedback which is many times more important than several hours or days later when the brake isn't used.

From what I've seen, lots of people flinch by flicking their finger off the trigger as 22 rimfire rifles shoot the bullet. That's not recoil sensitive. Those rimfire rifles have to held still much longer than center fire ones because their bullets take 2 to 3 times longer to leave the barrel after their primer fires.

 

[cw308]

Flinching in most part is anticipating the recoil , by lowering the recoil and practice the problem will fade , flinching shooting a 22 rifle may happen with a person new to shooting but once you get into the sport and shoot alot that will fade . Like roller skates or learning how to ride a bike , the more you do it the better you get . In the service , some have never fired a rifle and your starting with heavy recoil , excluding the 16 , I was a good shot before the service so I was a spotter and also saw my share of flinches and busted lips , some have to learn the hard way , still puts a smile on my face now that I think of it .

 

[zukiphile]

CW308, I have detectable flinch shooting 22lr rifle, and I've been shooting for 35 years. The joke with the offhand rimfire shooters at RFC, most of whom are quite a lot better than me, is that there is a "mighty tug" that will spoil most ten round groups. In my case I believe it comes from a failure to accept the wobble and an attempt to drive the front sight to the bull as the shot breaks.

Once training a new shooter on a military team shooting 600 yards in prone, I noticed him flinching every time he fired the Garand. I layed down close to him commenting his position held the rifle very still but he flinched every shot causing the 3 foot group on target. Asked him to let me pinch the trigger while he loaded and aimed the rifle.

His/our next 10 shots were well inside the 12 inch 10 ring, 5 in the 6 inch X ring.

Did that solve his problem when he was pressing the trigger himself?

The better I get at timing the shot, the harder it gets to accept the wobble, but timing the shot isn't consistently good enough to get reliably good groups.

 

[cw308]

Zuk
Yours isn't a flinch , more like a pressure cooker . Who was that 3rd baseman that had a mind block and had trouble throwing to first base. Yanking the tenth shot , stop at 9. Sorry . Read a post by Bart B the later manufactured 22lr from the 80's were more accurate the now. I'm adding that to my list of excuses.