Duty guns

[jad0110]

For the past almost five years, I have carried an 8 shot revolver on duty out of the fear of malfunctions, particularly those caused from limp wristing. This is one of the so called "shooter induced" malfunctions. I just can't swallow the fact that I may cause a gun to malfunction because I don't or can't provide the requisite pressure for the slide to operate. Maybe I am a little crazy or paranoid, or both. But, I have seen countless jams with semi-autos in training (including limp wristing), in police shoot-out videos, and I have read of actual accounts of officers losing their lives with a jammed up pistol in their hand.

The primary reason I rely on a revolver for personal protection is simply because I shoot them better overall, I'm much more familiar with their operation and I'm therefore more confident with them. However the above point is another reason. One of the tests I usually put a semi through is the loose forearm / weak wrist test. Until I found some private land to add the further element of lying on the ground at an awkward angle, I did the above test standing upright at a private range.

In short, I owned an XD that choked about 50% when held in such a manner, but was otherwise reliable. I've done the same test with a few Glocks, as well as a Springfield 1911. The Glocks experienced stovepipes at least half the time, though the 1911 was unaffected. That does effect my confidence with semi autos, but as always YMMV.

Jams are easy to clear in an auto...assuming your other hand is not busy keeping a box cutter off your throat.

Very true, but I will say not all auto jams are easy to clear. In addition to double feeds, which are a true PIA to deal with (I've had my 1911 and my dad's SKS do that), I had a Taurus 908 9mm sheer off a chunk of it's ejector which lodged itself in the frame rail so tight it may as well have been welded partially open.

If you plan on going on the offensive, hunting the active shooter, taking down the bank robbers after the pursuit, the auto, with its higher capacity and ease of firing multiple rounds, wins.

And of course, as I'm sure you well know, a rifle or shotgun would usually be preferable to either in said situation, though perhaps not always available.

 

[armsmaster270]

I started my LE career in 1965 with The Coast Guard. Upon discharge I joined the Police department in Feb 68. At that time I carried my dad's old doty weapon a S&W M&P 38spl 4". I then bought a S&W Mod 19 and carried it till the Dept. issued S&W Mod 15's with 158gr Winchester lead semi wadcutter, hollow points. They then went to the Treasury Load 110gr JHP +P+ by Federal. Just after retiring the city went to Sig 9mm's. I now carry a Sig 226 in 357Sig as primary CCW and a S&W 340PD as a Backup..

I never felt undergunned carrying my Mod 15 but I like the Sig's.

 

[ak2323]

The sad fact is that the vast majority of cops are absolutely terrible shots. That is not trolling, it is based on facts that are published and available.

Most cops carry a gun on their belt in the same way that they carry cuffs, flashlight, and badge. The majority will never fire a shot in anger and do not maintain proficiency.

It is what it is.

 

[sliponby]

I must say, many of you have given me second thoughts on choosing my G26 or PM9 with spare mag over my 442 with a speed strip or two...

 

[ftttu]

Ak2323, I'm not saying every time but many times when we qualify, an officer or two doesn't qualify on the first go-around. Our range is full of holes everywhere you look. Low flying aircraft should be afraid to fly close on those days.

 

[Sgt127]

The sad fact is that the vast majority of cops are absolutely terrible shots. That is not trolling, it is based on facts that are published and available.

Most cops carry a gun on their belt in the same way that they carry cuffs, flashlight, and badge. The majority will never fire a shot in anger and do not maintain proficiency.

It is what it is.

Please show the statistics to back your claim.

I see lots of paper punchers explaining how cops can't shoot. I see few people who have actually been the winner of a gunfight crow about how accurate they were.

 

[Darren Roberts]

The same old argument...Ford/Chevy Canon/Nikon Revolver/Semi. I prefer a semi due to familiarization and countless hours of practice.

In close quarters situations...ie.keeping a box cutter off my throat...my sidearm would most likely not be in play after 1 quick draw hip shot. After that my clip is dumped and its hand to hand. "30ft rule".

Some will argue this, but as all the post prior...its a matter of preference

 

[ak2323]

After that my clip is dumped

Absolutely. When I did hand-to-hand training we were always told to take off our barrettes ASAP before closing to engage.

 

[Colonel Custer]

Well in a perfect world...

Our brave blue line would be able to drop perps with pin point accuracy. Yet it does sadden me that we are down playing LE after all we want them to protect and serve not intimidate and assassinate. I own 7 handguns. 3 are semi 4 are revolvers. I am issued a .357 S&W 686 for work. I have only had to pull it once since 2005. I have never fired in anger and to be honest if I am a professional I will not fire in anger. I will fire to protect and preserve life, to stop sexual assault, and then only after veifying the surroundings to make sure that there aren't any collateral targets. A criminal has no hang ups, they have no code of ethics no morale high ground. That is why in my opinion the low accuracy numbers are out there. This is not dodge city, no one in blue wants to drag iron and then look afterward into a smoking bedroom wall. As any LE professionals will tell you (please join in) we are less worried about Internal affairs investigations than the knowledge that we have accidentally nailed one of the honest citizens. We are held accountable for every time we draw, every bullet fired. In a safe environment there are acceptable time to provide cover fire just as in hunting to flush a covey of quail.

 

[ak2323]

Please show the statistics to back your claim.

I see lots of paper punchers explaining how cops can't shoot. I see few people who have actually been the winner of a gunfight crow about how accurate they were.

Google is your friend.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=249587

You should try google. There are documented cases of multiple officers letting fly 60+ bullets in urban areas and connecting a handful of times.

Those bullets that don't connect end up somewhere. Sometimes somewhere really unfortunate.

 

[Sgt127]

Uh Huh...

And, the number of rounds fired by gang members in a drive by that hit no one?

The number of rounds fired in gang shooting that hit no one?

The number of rounds fired by average people in fear of thier lives that hit no one?

The number of rounds fired by the military for every enemy combatant hit?

(that would be 250,000 rounds for every enemy killed.) http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2005/050925-israel-bullets.htm

I know, Googles my friend. Makes that 60 per Police shooting seem pretty tame. Of course, that likely includes cover fire and the like, its certainly not exactly a quarter of a million rounds per hit.

I have been to shootings where the street was glittering in 7.62X39 casings, no one hit.

I watched a shooting happen where a guy stuck a gun in a car (drivers side window), fired six rounds and miss the driver.

Its oh so easy to simply state "cops can't shoot.". Most others don't actually keep stats. From my personal observations, others miss much more often than the Police.

Feel free to prove otherwise. But, likely , you can't. No one is getting into more gunfights on American soil against armed adversaries than the Police, yet, the Police seem to win most of the time, unless they are ambushed. Yet, the claim is always out there that the "Police can't shoot." Some may not be very good at it, but, even with minimal training, its alot more than the average person who has "grandpas old .38 in a desk drawer."

 

[ak2323]

Its oh so easy to simply state "cops can't shoot.". Most others don't actually keep stats. From my personal observations, others miss much more often than the Police.

Feel free to prove otherwise.

I wouldn't really try to compare gangland pendejos to sworn officers but you went there.

Pendejos perhaps don't really care all that much about what they hit, being low-life criminals.

Doesn't change the fact that cops throw a lot of lead around with p*ss poor results much of the time.

And throwing the military into the mix is a nice strawman as well. Because of course civilian policing is analogous to war. Seriously, you are sounding like a troll.

 

[Sgt127]

OK, I'm a troll. Hows your first week on the Firing Line going for you?

How often do "normal" people, while being shot at, score hits?

Again, its easy to claim "The Police can't shoot." Show me who does better.

 

[MLeake]

Darren Roberts, you seem to insist on giving really bad advice... People are better off learning some weapon retention. Better survival odds than dumping the clip... Who did you say trained you?

 

[roaddog28]

As with any statistic, I think that the hit percentage for cops can be very misleading if viewed outside of the proper perspective. It must be remembered that just because someone is a cop, that does not necessarily mean that he or she is particularly interested in firearms. Unfortunately, and this can be backed up by the comments of many former and current LEO's on this very forum, many cops view their handgun as just another piece of equipement on their belt and only practice with it when required to do so by department policy. Likewise, training and qualification requirements vary from department to department and I've read of agencies which only require their officers to practice/qualify with their weapons as little as once per year. Thus, as with anything else, it really comes down to the level of individual proficiency; a cop who practices regularly is better prepared for a real-life gunfight than one who practices when his/her department requires him/her to do so.

I would have too agree with the above statement. It comes down to the officer not the weapon in most cases.

As far as the number of round required to put someone down, anecdotal stories about such can also be rather misleading. Semi-autos, by and large, have lighter triggers and less recoil than a revolver in a comparable caliber. From my own shooting experience, I can see how, in the heat of the moment, it would be fairly easy to fire several more rounds after an incapacitating shot before you realize that the threat has been neutralized. Likewise, the lighter trigger of a semi-auto makes it easier to "get carried away". It has been my experience in shooting both semi-autos and revolvers that while I can shoot a semi-auto faster, my accuracy degrades unless I consciously force myself to slow down enough to reacquire my sight picture. With a revolver, the longer, heavier trigger forces me to slow down enough to realign the sights without having to make a concious effort to do so. The end result, for me at least, is that in order to maintain the same degree of accuracy, my speed with a semi-auto is roughly the same as with a revolver.

Again I agree I wind up slowing down my speed with a semi-auto to achive the accuracy versus shooting my revolvers. Other than round capability, the revolver is just as good as a semi-auto. I also believe that the "older officers" that still carry a revolver are better prepared because they know that they only have 6 shots and maybe one or two speedloaders. I think sometimes officers that carry hi cap autoloaders rely on round count instead of accuracy. Sometimes they wins but alot of times they lose.
Howard

 

[bds32]

In short, I owned an XD that choked about 50% when held in such a manner, but was otherwise reliable. I've done the same test with a few Glocks, as well as a Springfield 1911. The Glocks experienced stovepipes at least half the time, though the 1911 was unaffected.

That is a very interesting anecdote. Thanks for sharing those observations. The limp wristing I have seen has been with a Glock but one of my very experienced buddies said that he cannot get a 1911 to limpwrist no matter how he holds it so that seems to jive well with your experience. I never had a problem with limpwristing when I carried a 1911 (at least I think I didn't). I did have the occassional jam though and overall, I have seen more jams with the 1911 pattern pistol than any other type. Although I have great respect for the 1911, I think that if one carries it, they should be dedicated to the routine use, maintenance, and inspection, including magazine replenishment. I had one that started jamming and we figured out it was probably due to weak extractor tension. We pulled the extractor, bowed it in, and that seemed to alleviate the problem but I would still have a jam here and there for unknown reasons. For those folks who seldom shoot, I would never recommend the 1911. It is not a gun for the tyro.

 

[ftttu]

I've been a LEO for over 20 years and I've seen some very bad and very good shooting from my fellow officers, both on the local, state and federal levels. If we can say most citizens haven't ever shot a gun and all cops have, I would think cops are on average, are better shots. In the academy and other firearms training, there is a lot of repetitive shooting where it becomes more reflexive. We also have drawn from our holsters hundreds of times and have competed against each other for speed and accuracy. Being "Top Gun" is a coveted title in the academy.
P.S. I hate to say it but I didn't get Top Gun because I burned my arms out during an intense workout the day before so I actually didn't get to qualify on the date we were ranked. But, I did get "Company High Shooter" in USMC boot camp. Just saying...

One more worthless anecdote: When I was in the USMC, a buddy of mine who worked at the range told me that a gunnery sergeant had loaded his magazines with his rounds alternating between facing from and back. Who knows what he was thinking.

 

[jad0110]

I must say, many of you have given me second thoughts on choosing my G26 or PM9 with spare mag over my 442 with a speed strip or two...

Hee hee, sorry, didn't mean to scare you .

Selecting a gun for protection is always a tradeoff process. There are many characteristics to consider; how you weight each characteristic / design feature is up to you. Some will put high capacity above all else, and won't carry a gun that holds less than 16 rounds. Personally, I've seen for myself how easy it is to limp wrist some autos, particularly polymer frame ones. I've also experienced a significantly larger number of failures with autos in general, so that does impact how I select my carry guns. Others have different experiences, which leads them to select different tools for the job.

That is a very interesting anecdote. Thanks for sharing those observations. The limp wristing I have seen has been with a Glock but one of my very experienced buddies said that he cannot get a 1911 to limpwrist no matter how he holds it so that seems to jive well with your experience. I never had a problem with limpwristing when I carried a 1911 (at least I think I didn't). I did have the occassional jam though and overall, I have seen more jams with the 1911 pattern pistol than any other type. Although I have great respect for the 1911, I think that if one carries it, they should be dedicated to the routine use, maintenance, and inspection, including magazine replenishment. I had one that started jamming and we figured out it was probably due to weak extractor tension. We pulled the extractor, bowed it in, and that seemed to alleviate the problem but I would still have a jam here and there for unknown reasons.

I suspect the extractor as well. I'd like to do some more detailed testing first however before I start messing with it. I tried replacing the mainspring an original spec part (don't recall if it was a 16 or 18 lb) with no effect.