Duty guns

[Brant]

Hello, I've read some recent posts about revolvers. Not that I'm against revolvers, I'm looking at a .357 now, but as far as a duty weapon goes it seems that a semi auto may be a wiser choice.

My duty weapon is an FNP .45. 14 rounds seems better than 5-8, actally it seems about twice as good. And the fact that if i carry three mags (42 rounds + 1 in the chamber) that is about 5-8 times better. (Ok, I still want my old 1911 back, I'll just have to buy some 10 round mags. I HATE DA/SA semi-autos)

To put that in context, Law enforcement officers have a combat hit % of 20%. That means that in a stressful situation an officer will make 1 hit for every five times he fires his weapon. Poor trainig if you ask me, BUT this means that if my partner carries an 8 round weel gun with 2 reloads he is going to make 5 hits if he's lucky. If he's got a six shooter that brings it down to 3. Where as My side arm gives me 8 hits (ok, I shoot a lot so saying 8 out of 43 really hurts but to level the playing field...)

As far as misfires go, a revolver allows you to keep pulling the trigger. A semi-auto requiers a bit of training to get quickly back in the fight. Then again, reloads with semi-auto's are far eayer to train, and, for most people are far quicker than a speed loader with a revolver.

I just want to here some oppinions here. Are the guys carring revolvers on duty being a bit nestalgic, or is there somthing I'm missing here?

 

[hardworker]

Shooting at paper and shooting at people are two different things. Especially if the other guy is shooting back at you. People claim that cops are lousy shots, and there may be some truth to that rumor, but I think it has been taken to an extreme. I know plenty of cops that shoot a lot, and hit the paper. Doesn't make them good gunfighters.

 

[Glenn Dee]

Bingo! Hardworker.

Revolvers have served as service weapons within policing, and the military for a long time.

Keeping in mind that handguns are defensive weapons. As I was trained... The major reason for the many rounds of ammo in two or more magazines is more for malfunction clearing. I was a mamber of a P.D. when the major transition from revolvers to autoloaders happened. The most common difference was IMO the folks with the autoloaders fired more rounds in real shooting situations.

IMO if you believe that you need 46 rounds to defend yourself, you probably need a rifle.

 

[kraigwy]

I'm a fan of revolvers for LE. Not to long before I retired my department started authorizing semis. I tried carring my 1911 for a while but went back to my Model 28.

It fit my needs better. If I was ever to get back into LE my choice would be my Model 28 (If I was to go back to Alaska where we had to deal with large game) but if shooting moose wasn't involved, I'd probably carry my Model 64.

In shooting different "combat" style competitions, I shoot a second gun, compairing my Model 64 with my autos (Colt Gold Cup and Beretta). In the reloading department, I can't reload my revolver as fast as I can replace the magazine in my semis, but almost always, in the accuracy department, my scores are better with the Model 64.

Remember in LE you have to account for those missed rounds.

I can get my first six rounds off faster with my revolver then I can get six rounds off with my semis.

One reason I believe civilian departments have gone to semis is cost. Smith & Wesson and Colt cannot compete with their revolvers with the prices Glock sell their guns to Police Departments.

If given a choice, I'd pick a revolver over a semi for LE every time.

 

[Shotgun693]

I was in 6 shootings in 35 years. I never fired more than 4 rounds in any 1 of'm. IMO, if you need more than 4 or 5 rounds in a fight then you needed a rifle or shotgun in the first place.

 

[PT-92]

Brant
...Are the guys carring revolvers on duty being a bit nestalgic, or is there somthing I'm missing here?...

I wasn't aware major big-city PD's still used revolvers as their issued weapon? I know Sheriff, Security, Couriers etc. still do?

I will have to look for a list concerning this just to satisfy my curiosity (by the way, nothing against revolvers but I would advocate a semi for Duty).

-Happy Holidays

 

[MikeNice81]

I was in 6 shootings in 35 years. I never fired more than 4 rounds in any 1 of'm. IMO, if you need more than 4 or 5 rounds in a fight then you needed a rifle or shotgun in the first place.

Peter Soulis

Officer Peter Soulis was monitoring traffic from a service station parking lot when he spotted a Toyota pull onto the lot with its lights off. The driver drove to a spot directly in Soulis' line of sight, turned the Toyota toward the street and stopped. Ignoring Soulis, he sat eyes straight ahead, focused on the small strip mall across the street. It was almost midnight, and the only business still open in the mall was a sandwich shop.

In short Soulis went to check on a suspicious vehicle occupied one time. Things got dicey pretty quick. It took 22 hits to stop the sober attacker. 17 of those hits were center mass.

Yeah having access to a rifle would have been nice. Sometimes, fate doesn't play nice and you get stuck. If Soulis had only carried six shots, chances are he would be dead.

Skip To Page 17

The criminal was shot 17 times with .223 and .40S&W before he stopped fighting back. 11 shots passed through his body. 5 shots hit his abdomen and chest. He continued to fight even though his left foot was pretty much destroyed, he had a round stuck in his throat, and his right arm was completely snapped. They even had to fight to get him handcuffed.

Carry a six shooter might have cost a couple of cops their lives.

The FBI came to a very solid conclusion after the PA shooting. Determined individuals can sustain many gunshot wounds in areas that produce great pain and continue to fight a long time, even without the aid of drugs or alcohol.

 

[bds32]

Are the guys carring revolvers on duty being a bit nestalgic, or is there somthing I'm missing here?

I work for a mid size agency on the outskirts of a large metro area. Right now I am in investigations but had 13 years of patrol duty. I am a current firearms instructor and former SWAT team leader. I carried glocks and 1911's for 12 years. Besides using revolvers as back-ups and off duty stuff, I hadn't used a revolver much. For the past almost five years, I have carried an 8 shot revolver on duty out of the fear of malfunctions, particularly those caused from limp wristing. This is one of the so called "shooter induced" malfunctions. I just can't swallow the fact that I may cause a gun to malfunction because I don't or can't provide the requisite pressure for the slide to operate. Maybe I am a little crazy or paranoid, or both. But, I have seen countless jams with semi-autos in training (including limp wristing), in police shoot-out videos, and I have read of actual accounts of officers losing their lives with a jammed up pistol in their hand. Is it rare? Yes, I believe it is. Have officers died because the six shots in their revolver failed to hit the mark and the gun went dry? Absolutely, Newhall 1970 was the most glaring example of this. My argument is that if the variables are known, such as a gun going dry after 6,7,8 rounds, then you know how to plan around that. How do you plan around a malfunction that may happen on shot 1 or shot 20? You just practice malfunction drills or carry a back-up. There are ups and downs to both sides of the argument and I believe the debate is long over. The semi-auto is the victor and I fully accept that....for everyone else. I teach officers to use a semi-auto pistol and I can shoot and operate one very well but the following simple example is illustrative of what I am talking about. While conducting instructor development training last week, our lead instructor went to demonstrate a one handed shooting technique at close quarters (five yards) and his Glock jammed after the first round for no explainable reason. It was the first time he shot the pistol that day. Had it not been a paper target, he might have lost his life. Its this kind of crap that I have seen over and over that caused me to switch. I surely don't expect anyone else to though as I have always said that living is a personal choice. Most officers don't even have a choice so I am lucky there. My opinion is that you think things through and make your choices. Then you practice.

 

[Newton24b]

this is an OLD topic that does have historical perspective.

When rosevelt took control of the new york city police department, he chose new guns in 32 sw long, as a way to get rid of non universal caliber interchange. And as a way to get a gun and ammo combination that was accurate and fun to shoot.
after a while the police agencies followed suit and upgraded to 38 specials. and then in the 1930-1950 time period swapped to the 357. then some agencies had the 41 magnum when it came out.
then the agencies switch to semi autos and 9 mm.

in a way its a cycle

1. 32 sw long -low powered target round
2. 38 special - mid power round
3. 357 - full power hunting round
4. 41 magnum - full out anti bear round
5. 9mm -cross between 32sw long and 38 spcl
6. back to mid power with 40 sw.

 

[Walklightly]

How about a 100 shot 22lr, spray and pray like threr's no God?

 

[PT-92]

I have lived long enough now to comfortably say that there is no "blanket" answer for anything in this universe (with the exception that Raquel Welch was and still is the most beutiful woman I've ever seen hands-down).

I digress--That being said, for HD/PD and even civilian CCW I think a valid argument can be made for either a revolver or semi. I would recommend proficiency with speed loaders if the revolver is your choice (I've seen people way faster with revolver reloads than semi mag changes).

Yet I still think there is a reason that all special forces squads worldwide use solely semis for thei small arms tasks. To reiterate, "special forces" of which I do not pretend to be (though I do CCW a semi 9mm).

Happy Holidays to ALL!!!

 

[TheGoldenState]

Two S&W TR8 8-shot .357's


One on each hip

 

[Viper225]

My first LE duty weapon in 1974 was a personally owned Browning HP. It did not last long. Picky on ammo, and did not shoot well at all. Traded it even up for a new S&W 28 Highway Patrolman in a 4". The 28 did not malfunction, was and still is very accurate, and had plenty of power to get the job done. I was totally happy with the trade, and the 28 S&W.

Back in law enforcement in 1992 with a 4046 S&W. As I recall the 1911 was a no go at that time with the Police Academy. That pretty much left S&W or Glock. I did not like the Glock, and I did not like the decocker/safety on the S&W, so I went DA only. The Instructor "Bucky" advised me that I would be lucky to qualify with the DA only Smith & Wesson. He was mistaken, I was Top Gun in the class. That was the only time he was wrong best that I remember, great instructor. The 4046 and I got along just fine until the first Deer hit by car call. I was not impressed with the 40 S&W's performance on the deer at all.
I then ordered a Tex Shoemaker Hi Security Semi-Break front duty holster for my Smith & Wesson 610 revolver. As no Duty Moon Clip holders were made, I built a Quad Moon Clip holder. It was in a 2 up, 2 down configuration in Black Basketweave of course. I carried the 610 as a Deputy Sheriff for 15 years, and was totally happy with it. Way better performance on deer hit by cars.

My last LE job was as a small town police chief. As handgun qualification courses were now geared totally towards Hi Cap handguns, and I was struggeling to make the times doing reloads where the hi caps were not required to make them, I finally gave up and got an XDm 40.

Would I feel undergunned with a full size Service Revolver today? Not at all, I like the extra Power and Accuracy of the revolver.

Bob

 

[Single Six]

I've been full-time LE since 1989, and was issued a revolver when I first started. Even today, though I'm issued a Sig P220ST for duty carry, when I'm on my own time I'm usually toting a Ruger GP-100, backed up with 2 reloads. I'm comfortable with it, I can make good hits with it, and to me, reliability is paramount; hence, a revolver. On the other hand, if I'm not carrying the GP, on the days I'm in an auto mood, I'm carrying another Ruger, my P-90. It's proven itself to be as reliable as an auto can be [much more so than my issued Sig].

 

[Sgt127]

Jams are easy to clear in an auto...assuming your other hand is not busy keeping a box cutter off your throat.

More rounds in the gun usually leads to more rounds fired. Not always, but, Officers have a tendency to "hide behind a wall of bullets" if they have enough of them.

In real deals, autos jam alot more than we like to think they do. One hand, crappy grip, with blood on your hands, on your back in a gravel parking lot is not how semi autos are tested in the gun rags.

I think in every suicide I have ever worked, involving an auto, the gun was jammed after the one shot. If the suicide was sucsessful, obviously, it was a very limp grip after the shot fired.

The last OIS shooting I was involved in, bad guy got off one shot with a Ruger 9mm, it was laying beside his body with a stovepipe. Interestingly, the last NYPD Officer killed, after shooting the Officer, the perp dumped his jammed Ruger 9mm under a car as he attempted to get away.

For a purely DEFENSIVE use, the revolver, in a powerful cartrige, is king.

If you plan on going on the offensive, hunting the active shooter, taking down the bank robbers after the pursuit, the auto, with its higher capacity and ease of firing multiple rounds, wins.

A Jeep is a great car, unless you plan a long road trip. The Mutang GT is a great car, unless you plan on going off road. A VW Jetta is a great car, unless you plan on hauling alot of plywood and gravel.

Different tools, different jobs. I carry a Glock 22 as a duty gun, but, for the last 20 years, an airweight Chief has been my backup.

 

[ak2323]

In short Soulis went to check on a suspicious vehicle occupied one time. Things got dicey pretty quick. It took 22 hits to stop the sober attacker. 17 of those hits were center mass.

There's something very wrong with this story. At the very least how he failed to make a headshot if he was filling the air with lead like that.

 

[PT-92]

This is a great thread, but I have to think that 'some' of the purported jamming incidents could possibly be slightly exaggerated (imagine that on the internet...). Just to be sure, I have no evidence of such but find some of the aforementioned jams to be a bit incredulous at least relative to their 'frequency.'I guess anything is possible so maybe the guns mentioned in these posts were either filthy dirty (for the record, I have fired hundreds of rounds through my P95 absent cleaning with no adverse effect to its reliability) or damaged in some way. Mind you that this is coming from someone that while carrying a semi for CCW does not use HP's for fear of a feeding issue--instead I use either EFMJ or Hornady Critical Defense/Duty whereby the HP nose of the bullet is filled and the round essentially cycles like a FMJ. That's obviously the key with a semi, find the right round/gun combination and stick with it (doing so has given me a semi that is as reliable as a revolver).

I carry a semi solely because with my P11 I can easily conceal 11 rounds of +P 9mm and carry two extra mags giving me 30+ rounds of defensive capability. However, if I was proficient with speedloaders, I would feel entirely comfortable CCW'ing a small/mid framed revolver.

-Happy Holidays

 

[Sgt127]

Obviously directed at me. Realize, a suicide is the worst case scenario for a semi auto. Contact shot. One hand grip. And the instant the gun fires, limp wrist. No exaggeration. As best as I can recall, suicides, involving semi auto handguns, the gun was stovepiped.

 

[PT-92]

Sgt127,

Not specifically--just the thread in general.

Semi vs. Revolver, Pump vs. Semi, .45 vs .9mm etc...Some things will just forever live on in infamy, still I only believe so much of what I read across the board but, in particular, the 'vs' like threads. No doubt there is validity on both sides of most any issue, it's just so hard to determine in the world's largest virtual Pub, AKA 'The Net.'

-Happy Holidays

 

[Webleymkv]

Like anyone else, I think a cop is, by and large, best served by the type of weapon he or she is most comfortable with. While semi-autos are the most prevalent type of police duty weapon these days, there is still a fairly large number of cops that, for one reason or another, still choose to carry a revolver. By and large, the cops that stick with revolvers are typically older and some of the more experienced among members of their profession and most are not the types of people I'd want to have to fight (not that I particularly want to fight anyone). I can only assume that these men and women have worked a long time in a profession not forgiving of mistakes when it comes to firearms and I think that most of them probably have a very good reason for the choices that they make.

As with any statistic, I think that the hit percentage for cops can be very misleading if viewed outside of the proper perspective. It must be remembered that just because someone is a cop, that does not necessarily mean that he or she is particularly interested in firearms. Unfortunately, and this can be backed up by the comments of many former and current LEO's on this very forum, many cops view their handgun as just another piece of equipement on their belt and only practice with it when required to do so by department policy. Likewise, training and qualification requirements vary from department to department and I've read of agencies which only require their officers to practice/qualify with their weapons as little as once per year. Thus, as with anything else, it really comes down to the level of individual proficiency; a cop who practices regularly is better prepared for a real-life gunfight than one who practices when his/her department requires him/her to do so.

As far as the number of round required to put someone down, anecdotal stories about such can also be rather misleading. Semi-autos, by and large, have lighter triggers and less recoil than a revolver in a comparable caliber. From my own shooting experience, I can see how, in the heat of the moment, it would be fairly easy to fire several more rounds after an incapacitating shot before you realize that the threat has been neutralized. Likewise, the lighter trigger of a semi-auto makes it easier to "get carried away". It has been my experience in shooting both semi-autos and revolvers that while I can shoot a semi-auto faster, my accuracy degrades unless I consciously force myself to slow down enough to reacquire my sight picture. With a revolver, the longer, heavier trigger forces me to slow down enough to realign the sights without having to make a concious effort to do so. The end result, for me at least, is that in order to maintain the same degree of accuracy, my speed with a semi-auto is roughly the same as with a revolver.

Now, I'm not nor have I ever been a police officer and I've thankfully never been involved in a gunfight. Were I to become a cop and be allowed to carry whatever gun I liked, I'd probably choose my S&W 1076 10mm Auto with a small revolver in .38 Special or .357 Magnum as a backup. As a private individual who does not feel the necessity to carry a BUG, however, I choose to carry a revolver far more often than I choose to carry a semi-automatic.