dry-firing to smooth trigger: myth???

[navaho]

Has anyone taken a recent S&W (ie, less than 5 years old, but pre-sellout ) and dry-fired the h*ll out of it, in order to smooth the trigger pull?

I have a three year old 686, and for the past few days I have been double-action dry-firing it every evening (while watching TV), until I can't stand it anymore. But I'm not noticing any change in the trigger pull at all

Sooo.... then I thought, maybe the old advice about dry-firing to improve the trigger is bogus?

IIRC, the logic is that old (20, 30 years) revolvers, even cheap ones, tend to have a very nice trigger pull. And the reason for that is (the theory goes...) because they have been fired so many times, which has worn the trigger mating surfaces to a nice buttery consistency (or something like that )

Well... maybe there's a different explanation. Maybe it's simply that the S&W assembly line workers of 20 years ago were much better than the S&W assembly line workers of recent years, and used to take more pride in their craft. And therefore the reason the old revolvers have such nice trigger pulls is simply because they were nice to start with. And not because they've been shot a lot.

It kinda makes sense, because in the 90's the gun industry was under lots of pressure to minimize costs, and was also under constant attack in the media. This does not make for happy gun-maker worker bees.

At any rate, I'm not noticing any improvement in the trigger pull, and my wife is about ready to ban me to the garage (that loud SNAP of the hammer dropping is really getting on her nerves). And since the garage is Very Cold in the winter and I'm not noticing any improvement, I'm about to give up.

Unless... you guys really believe that dry-firing will smooth the trigger pull on a modern S&W. In which case, I have a few stupid questions:

Q#1: is it supposed to improve the SA pull, or the DA, or both?

Q#2: is the breaking-in dry-firing supposed to be done DA? I assume Yes, because I don't see how firing SA could improve the DA pull..., but then again, maybe it's only the SA pull that's supposed to get better? Which would mean that I only have to dry-fire SA.

Q#3: has anyone improved the trigger pull of a modern (< 5 years old) S&W via extensive dry-firing? (or live firing?)

Q#4: has anyone ever rigged up a Rube Goldberg machine to do this dry-firing for them? (eg, a drill connected to an offcenter cam, which would repeatedly dry-fire the gun -- accomplishing in minutes what would otherwise take weeks, if done by hand)?

Thanks in advance!

Navaho

P.S. I've seen the AGI S&W video, and was horrified at all the subtle mechanical parts hiding behind my 686's side plate. Horrified in the sense that there's no way I'm going to voluntarily open that puppy up, in order to do a bit of kitchen table gunsmithing in order to smooth out the trigger pull faster than via this dry-firing technique. A man's gotta know his limitations

On a related note, I see now why "they" say that revolvers aren't really mass-produced. That is, each one has to be assembled by hand, due to the subtle and delicate relationship of all the tiny curved parts behind the side plate.

 

[Quantum Singularity]

It seems to work on my Ruger revolvers...

 

[sw627pc]

Does it work, yes. Does it take a LONG time, yes again. The parts you are trying to smooth out all have hardened surfaces (that you DON'T want to break with a tool of any type). SA or DA. Works for both, BUT, this involves two separate pieces (of all those "parts" you looked at). So they both would have to be done "over and over" to affect both. In all honesty, if you are at all mechanically adept, a S&W is quite simple inside. The primary requirements for working on them are:

1. KNOW how to remove and replace the sideplate properly (without damage!)

2. Have a clean, well lit work area.

3. Pay attention to how things are fitted together prior to removing anything.

4. Don't cut through the hardened surfaces on the appropriate parts (fine stoning or polishing only, don't get aggressive).

In point of fact, the last three NEW S&W's I have worked on all needed a thorough cleaning and relubrication from the factory. Someone at the factory got carried away with the packing grease and they had so much of it in the action that nothing worked right. A good cleaning and lubrication had the owners thinking I had done some kind of "action job" on them.

 

[bedlamite]

Get some Outers Gunslick, it's grease with polishing compound in it. After cleaning, coat all the internal parts with it for about 500 rounds then clean it out with gunscrubber and lube with your favorite oil.

1) If you shoot DA, the DA pull will improve; if you shoot SA, the SA pull will improve. They use different mechanisms to fire.

2) See #1, use both.

3) Worked great on my SP101, S&W's are more delicate, do it live or with snap caps.

4)That sounds like a timing problem waiting to happen, don't do it.

 

[h2o 5o]

sw627pc,

Is there any readily available reference, preferably on-line, that details how to take apart, smooth up, and re-assemble a S&W revolver?

 

[RON in PA]

Smith used to assemble their guns using bins of parts that were hand fitted together by long time employees. When they went to computer numerical control they stopped doing this.

Maybe your dryfiring has slowly improved the trigger pull, but because it was so gradual you are not aware of the improvement. What's an objective measure of improvment.

AS others have posted, Rugers do respond to dryfiring.

 

[riverdog]

My solution to the S&W trigger issue ...

... is to buy old Smith & Wesson revolvers. I'm looking for a M-19 now 'cause I've got a N framed M27 and a K framed M19 would make a nice addition. There's lots of them out there. If its working when you buy it, maintain it. If it isn't working, get a really good price or pass it by. BTW, my GP-100 had a great trigger pull out of the box, definitely a keeper.

 

[sw627pc]

H2O,

Haven't used any of them so I can't rate them, but there are a number of books and videos available. Kuhnhausen's books are supposed to be top notch. Brownell's carries a number of these (prices from $18.95 to over $500 for the gunsmith training course videos)

 

[mikey357]

Yes- dryfiring CAN help "smooth out" the DA trigger pull of a revolver-MOST revolvers, in fact! How many "snaps" did you get in over the several nights you did it? Personally, I have NEVER noted ANY improvement of the DA trigger pull's "smoothness" with LESS THAN 300 "snaps"...most of MY S&W's took 800-1,200 "snaps" to make a difference, with a couple not showing maximal improvement until they had been "snapped" 2,500-3,000 times...REALLY! I keep track of ALL "round-count" with my revos...both "live-fire" AND "dryfire"...easier to troubleshoot and do PM that way! Yes, some of the larger "Custom Revolversmiths" DO HAVE a MACHINE that they use to "snap in" a revo after they've done an "action job" or built a PPC gun...probably not cost-efficient for most of us, however! Hope this helps....mikey357

 

[James K]

Aside from changes to the springs, most "action jobs" include stoning which is nothing more than accelerated wear.

Yes, the old S&Ws were made more carefully and hand fitted, but they were not that much better out of the box. Mostly they are smooth today because they have been fired a lot.

Mikey is correct; it will take a lot more tired out fingers to produce enough clicks to smooth the guns. A good action job can get results with a lot less work. Of course, then you won't be able to change a tire by lifting the car with your trigger finger.

Jim

 

[PKAY]

I recently finished Kuhnhausen's book on Smith revolvers. It was excellent! Although speaking from disappointing personal experience, Jerry literally lambasts most anyone trying to work the innards of a S&W handgun unless that person follows his advice to the letter. And good advice it is.

Using his methods, I polished just the rebound slide on my Model 29, leaving all other components alone (they're fairly smooth already). Using jeweler's ruge, the back, bottom, top side were smoothed against a steel plate. WOW! What a difference. Double action is like butter!

A word of advice - have the right tools, buy the right tools, use the right tools. Know what it is you are capable of doing as an amateur gunsmith and, most importantly, what you (or your home workshop setup) is NOT capable of doing.

 

[JRR]

Wet firing

I've had excellent results with ruger sec. six's and s@w K and N frames cycling the actions with the gun submerged in kerocine. I fill a bucket deep enough to hold the gun submerged, put on a kitchen rubber glove and cycle the double action until my hand cramps. This gently polishes and burnishes the rubbing internal parts and washes away any grit or contamination. This works especially well with rugers and their stainless internal works. DO NOT USE GASOLINE! Do it several times to make a difference. Afterwards, clean the gun well and re-lube.
Jeff

 

[olazul]

Pkay-

Why not just dremel it with jewlers rouge?

regards,

Olazul

 

[sw627pc]

olazul,

I'd be REAL reluctant to take a Dremel to the action parts in most DA revolvers, too fast and too hard to control. In most cases all you want is to smooth the surface very slightly. A fine stone and oil is a much better idea. Also, with the Dremel you tend to reshape parts, this is NOT a good idea on ANY action part in any gun. Save the dremel for feed ramps and such. Stick to stones and hand work on action parts. Now if the inside of the frame needed smoothing (serious tool marks and such) I might consider a dremel and a wheel for the rough work before going to a stone to finish it, but only if the surface was unusually bad to start with. In the case PKay is describing, the rebound block MUST be square and flat to work properly, there is NO WAY to do this with a dremel tool. The flat steel plate (or a piece of plate glass) and jeweler's rouge keeps all the surfaces flat and square.

 

[PKAY]

olazul, I must agree with sw627pc. One can literally ruin a rebound slide, cylinder stop, trigger assy, hammer assy, hand, etc. by "over smoothing." What Jerry Kuhnhausen trys to impart is that less is better. I used jewelers ruge because it was less abrasive than stoning, and yet it worked fine. Keep in mind that a lot of hand fitting went into those old Smiths in the first place. Where Jerry really gets into "working" the innards is when someone presents him with a gun that obviously has been taken apart before and a "parts changer" not a gunsmith did the work. The smithing he describes is more akin to watch repair than auto mechanics if you get my drift.

 

[9mmepiphany]

please...

do not use your dermel on the contact surfaces of your action parts...stone and fit, stone and fit...wheelguns are not pistols.

if your moto tool must be fed, you could polish the inside of the frame where action parts rub. i guess you could even jewel the sides of the hammer and trigger, round the cylinder release latch and hammer spur, smooth and round the trigger face and dehorn the rear sight.

navaho - bill davis' (PPC gunsmith/competitor) shop used to descibe the difference between their duty tune and their super (competition) tune as a couple of seasons of PPC (about 2-4k trigger pulls). the one prerequsite (big one) is that the action parts are in the proper alignment before you start dryfiring.

 

[BigG]

About your dryfiring a lot...

are you sure it's not your hand getting stronger?

 

[RustyRP]

hand strength is one thing for sure.

Ive been preaching (im not a S&W gunsmith but i do have a cable modem so that makes me as qualified as at least 50% of the internet gun experts - lol) to dry fire morning noon and night (3x a day) the following amount of times

50 times right hand index finger
50 times right hand middle finger
50 times left hand index finger
50 times left hand middle finger

this is 600 snaps a day - do this for a week and you are looking at 4200 dry firings.

I love dry firing - it lets me work out my nervous pent up energy.

see ya

 

[navaho]

my data point: it's a MYTH (or it takes more than 5,000 snaps)

"Bless me Father, for 'The Firing Line' spirit is not with me. I have dry-fired my S&W 686 over 5,000 times,
and I cannot detect any improvement in the smoothness of the trigger pull."

-----
Let me explain.

I was inspired by Mike357's detailed instructions (eg, keeping count of all the trigger pulls on his revolvers, and in particular giving exact numbers for when the trigger pull improvements should be noticed), so I embarked on a crusade to "be like Mike".

Mikey357 stated that:
1)it takes at least 300 trigger pull's to notice an improvement in trigger pull smoothness,

2)most of his S&W's took 800-1,200 "snaps" to make a difference, and

3)a few didn't show maximal improvement until they had been "snapped" 2,500-3,000 times

So I went to my office with my three year old (my 686 that is ), found a few good long web sites to sit and read, and began dry-firing my 686 in DA mode (ie, "snapping"). Every 100 snaps I updated my snap-count on a notepad sitting next to me.

I did not use snap caps. My 686 has a hammer-mounted firing pin.

Since I doing this to improve the gun and not my fingers, I rotated between four fingers for the snapping (index and middle finger of both hands). I also did this because (for now) I did NOT want to strengthen my fingers, because that might cast doubt on whether the better trigger pull was due to the dry-firing or due to my increased strength.

I estimate that before I started, I probably had between 500 and 1,000 snaps in the gun. So I decided to just treat that as 0, and do precisely 5,000 snaps in DA mode, so I could accurately report my results.

Well, after about 500 snaps, the sound started to really irritate me, so I put on hearing muffs. After about 2,000 snaps I took a break and watched TV for a while. It took me about six hours, off and on (ie, at a casual rate) to finish all 5,000 snaps. That works out to a bit less than 17 snaps a minute, but that's not how it happened. I'd actually do the snaps very fast, alternating fingers and switching hands, and then taking a break every few hundred snaps. I found that what worked best was to whip them off in multiples of 10, and then pause (eg, 30 snaps as fast as possible, pause, 20 snaps as fast as possible, pause), and then updating my notepad every 100 snaps. This worked best 'cause otherwise I tended to lose count. When I lost count, I went back to zero, ie, I "threw out" the snaps, rather than risk overestimating them.

After 5,000 snaps, I took four days off. My fingers still felt the workout after the first two days, then then felt like they were back to normal. BTW, they were surprisingly not-too-sore after the 5,000. I attribute this to switching between four fingers, and in fact doing most of the snaps with my stronger middle fingers.

After four days of rest, I decided to test my trigger's smoothness. It *barely* seemed a bit better, both in SA and DA mode. But just the tinest bit better. In fact, I could easily be convinced that it's exactly the same.

So I took a week off, and then decided to compare it against the only other S&W I have easy access to: a 3-year-old S&W 638. The S&W 638 has had very few snaps, maybe 200 max. Plus its internal mechanisms may differ from the 686's, so I thought it probably wouldn't be a realistic test: it would probably show that the 686 was smoother, but I wouldn't know if that was 'cause the 686 had improved, or because the 686 was better to begin with (perhaps because its bigger 686 frame allowed them to insert a smoother-feeling trigger mechanism than the 638).

WELL, it turns out to be moot, because the trigger pull of the 200-snap-638 FELT THE EXACT SAME AS the trigger pull of the 5,000-snap-686!

I was stunned. So I tried it multiple times. I closed my eyes and tried to feel The Force and become one with the 686. It didn't work. The trigger pulls felt the exact same.

I then threw my SIG P226 into the mix (kind of like eating a cracker when doing a taste test That helped: both S&W's definitely felt better than the P226. Both in SA and DA mode. But the two S&W's still felt identical to each other!

Heresy! Yes, I know, and I apologize. But that's what happened.

I do have guns with really sucky trigger pulls (my Ruger 10/22 comes to mind...), and the S&W trigger pulls feel significantly better than my SIG's trigger pulls, so I don't think I'm totally insensitive to trigger pull "goodness".

But as far as I can tell, those 5,000 double action trigger pulls didn't improve ANY aspect of my S&W's trigger pull.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[BigG]

One other idea that occurred to me...

Sometimes if you open the sideplate you will see a lot of gunked up lubricant, which if removed would improve the trigger pull quite a bit.

HTH