pdmoderator
New member
Glocks have a drop safety that's supposed to prevent this sort of thing.
http://www.glock.com/drop_safety.htm
- pdmoderator
http://www.glock.com/drop_safety.htm
- pdmoderator
Dropped gun fires and kills officer.
- Thread starter George Hill
- Start date
Glocks aren't striker fired. They don't even have hammers. They use a firing pin cartridge that has the firing pin under firing pin spring compression that's arguably enough to ignite the primer by itself ("half cocked"). The firing pin safety blocks the firing pin from protruding into the chamber unless the trigger is pulled.
As the trigger is pulled, it disengages the firing pin safety and further compresses the firing pin spring. When the trigger bar is pushed off, it releases the firing pin, and the gun fires.
Unlike "conventional" designs, Glocks use the firing pin spring to fire the gun whereas others use the firing pin spring to prevent the gun from firing.
The Kel Tec P32 uses a hammer block, but it's a true DAO in that there is no hammer energy stored when the trigger is in the forward position. The hammer block results in no "second strike" capability without resetting the trigger through slide movement.
David Park
New member
Regarding the Gun Talk thread mentioned by Ledbetter, early SIG P220s did not have a hammer return spring, and the hammer rested on the firing pin, whether you used the decocker or not. Newer 220s (like mine) have a spring that holds the hammer in a "half-cocked" position and a hammer safety that prevents it from touching the firing pin, and again this works whether the decocker is used or not. Even with the old 220s, there is still a firing pin safety, which was presumably compromised in the case of this officer.
More details:
http://home.t-online.de/home/cswimm/sig/sigfaq20.htm
http://home.t-online.de/home/cswimm/sig/sigfaq9.htm
More details:
http://home.t-online.de/home/cswimm/sig/sigfaq20.htm
http://home.t-online.de/home/cswimm/sig/sigfaq9.htm
At the end of a really long shift, I have been known to take off my several-ton Sam Browne belt, buckle it and loop the circle of the belt over my left arm for transport to my personal vehicle along with my shotgun, briefcase and dittybag.
It's not safe, and it probably isn't smart, but I've done it more than once. Other officers do also.
My sidearm, OC, baton and other gear remain in their individual scabbards during this process, and it isn't hard to see how dropping the belt could result in the sidearm discharging whilst in its holster.
LawDog
It's not safe, and it probably isn't smart, but I've done it more than once. Other officers do also.
My sidearm, OC, baton and other gear remain in their individual scabbards during this process, and it isn't hard to see how dropping the belt could result in the sidearm discharging whilst in its holster.
LawDog
Blackhawk - I seriously don't know much about Glocks. I have very little experience with them. I'm currently borrowing my dad's G19 while my 1911 is in the shop. When I take it apart, I can push my finger on the safety that will allow the firing pin to move forward (the little round shaped object on the underside of the slide). This allows the firing pin to move fully forward...but it is under no spring pressure at all. When I compress the firing pin safety the firing pin will move freely from the safe position to the fully forward position. So since its under no spring pressure wouldn't that mean that it doesn't "store hammer energy"? *scratches head* 
GunGeek- It seems to me that the reason why you can't fire twice in a row is because the trigger bar slips under the firing pin. The firing pin is not in a cocked position after racking the slide. I could be wrong though.
GunGeek- It seems to me that the reason why you can't fire twice in a row is because the trigger bar slips under the firing pin. The firing pin is not in a cocked position after racking the slide. I could be wrong though.
Ronin,
I'm no Glock expert either, but I'm very impressed with the ingenious design they use. Maybe you can reassemble it without the barrel and get a better idea of what happens.
I read a paper about how to adjust the trigger tension on Glocks. It can be set to very heavy or very light from the standard 5#. Obviously, an extremely light trigger isn't going to load up the spring with enough energy to fire the gun.
But now you've got my Glock curiousity aroused again. I need to get one I can take apart myself because what you're saying tends to make me think I don't understand what I absolutely "know" about how the mechanism works.
"Common knowledge" is that the light Glock trigger is due to firing energy being imparted to the spring when the slide cycles so only a small amount of additional energy is needed from the trigger to complete cocking and to release the safeties and the firing pin to fire the gun.
But if what I'm thinking based on your observations is correct and the firing pin spring is not pre-loaded, there's a conceptual problem in my head! One of the problems with there being no spring pressure on the firing pin as you described is that there wouldn't be any positive force retracting the firing pin when the gun cycles so the FP could be extended when the next round loads. That's NOT the way it happens, I'm sure.
However, the Glock's ability to bypass a hammer and opposing springs to fire the gun means that much less total force is needed -- IOW, its mechanical efficiency is much greater than conventional designs.
Gotta take one apart!
I think that's the key phrase. Glocks have half the gun's firing mechanism in the slide whereas other semis only have the firing pin.
I'm no Glock expert either, but I'm very impressed with the ingenious design they use. Maybe you can reassemble it without the barrel and get a better idea of what happens.
I read a paper about how to adjust the trigger tension on Glocks. It can be set to very heavy or very light from the standard 5#. Obviously, an extremely light trigger isn't going to load up the spring with enough energy to fire the gun.
But now you've got my Glock curiousity aroused again. I need to get one I can take apart myself because what you're saying tends to make me think I don't understand what I absolutely "know" about how the mechanism works.
"Common knowledge" is that the light Glock trigger is due to firing energy being imparted to the spring when the slide cycles so only a small amount of additional energy is needed from the trigger to complete cocking and to release the safeties and the firing pin to fire the gun.
But if what I'm thinking based on your observations is correct and the firing pin spring is not pre-loaded, there's a conceptual problem in my head! One of the problems with there being no spring pressure on the firing pin as you described is that there wouldn't be any positive force retracting the firing pin when the gun cycles so the FP could be extended when the next round loads. That's NOT the way it happens, I'm sure.
However, the Glock's ability to bypass a hammer and opposing springs to fire the gun means that much less total force is needed -- IOW, its mechanical efficiency is much greater than conventional designs.
Gotta take one apart!
Hm. Hard to find a modern pistol that will discharge when dropped on its hammer. The 1911, carried cocked, can't fire when dropped on its hammer. I can POSSIBLY see how a loaded 1911 w/its hammer down (and thus off-safety) could fire when dropped on its hammer. Maybe. But probably not. Floating firing pin keeps it off the primer, and the drop's inertia is DOWN.
There are some unfortunately misinformed people who believe that a 1911 is safer in Condition Two (loaded chamber, hammer down) than in Condition One (Cocked and locked).
Possibility: This may have been his backup pistol. I've been known to take my backup, still in its body-armor holster, off the armor, leaving the kevlar in my locker along with my belt, while wearing my main side arm on my belt (In a G-Code paddle holster), and carry the backup out.
There are some unfortunately misinformed people who believe that a 1911 is safer in Condition Two (loaded chamber, hammer down) than in Condition One (Cocked and locked).
Possibility: This may have been his backup pistol. I've been known to take my backup, still in its body-armor holster, off the armor, leaving the kevlar in my locker along with my belt, while wearing my main side arm on my belt (In a G-Code paddle holster), and carry the backup out.
A lot of question marks on this one. Since a rash of lawsuits in the late 70's and early 80's, particularly against Ruger, nearly all modern handguns have been engineered to make this virtually impossible, even if it takes a direct blow on a cocked hammer. Even then, the chances of getting nailed square in the head by the bullet are extremely small. Either he was packing some old handgun (unlikely) or there's something more to this story. Perhaps some loose object was pushing against the trigger and the safety was not on.
Glock's are striker fired.
The slide motion PARTIALLY cocks the gun.
In this condition, the striker is retained in position by a "firing pin" block, and by the sear. The sear is held in postion by a fixed ramp in the gun--by design it cannot slip out of the way until the trigger is pulled fully rearward.
Pulling the trigger completes the cocking stroke, deactivates the firing pin block and releases the striker/firing pin to travel forward under spring pressure.
For a Glock to go off without the trigger being pulled, it's going to require several parts (at least 3 if I've got it right) to break simultaneously. A worn sear letting go won't be enough. Other parts will have to break too.
In general, while operation is different, most modern guns are equipped with internal interlocks which perform similar safety functions.
Actually, the hammer down position is dangerous on some pistols. If they do not have a rebounding hammer or a firing pin block, a blow to the hammer or being dropped on the hammer can fire the gun. The 1911A1 style pistols without firing pin blocks fit into this category. That is why most people carry them with the hammer back if the chamber is loaded. Many older revolvers are also like this--which is why some still recommend carrying revolvers with the chamber under the hammer empty.
Any quality pistol of modern design will not fire as a result of being dropped unless the gun has been improperly modified or is in VERY bad condition. There are some older designs still in common use (as noted above) which will if certain precautions are not taken.
If the trigger was somehow pulled during the drop or in an attempt to catch the gun, that's a different story.
guntalkradio
New member
David Park,
"early SIG P220s did not have a hammer return spring, and the hammer rested on the firing pin"
There is a "half cock" on the hammer of early 220's just like a 1911's and its a good idea to half cock early 220's if you have a round in the chamber. I've always wondered why sig got rid of the half cock on newer 220's?
-Greg
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"early SIG P220s did not have a hammer return spring, and the hammer rested on the firing pin"
There is a "half cock" on the hammer of early 220's just like a 1911's and its a good idea to half cock early 220's if you have a round in the chamber. I've always wondered why sig got rid of the half cock on newer 220's?
-Greg
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LISTEN WHILE YOU SURF TFL!
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I bought my first Glock shortly after the Glock 20 came on the market. I was itching for a 10mm, and the 20 was the only one getting good reviews.
I got it home and did my typical familiarization teardown to look for problems, clean out excessive lube/preservative and remove the residue from the factory test-firing.
I was so impressed with the design that I returned to the store and bought my second Glock, a 17, before even shooting the 20.
I now have 4.
Well, in the classic sense, a firing pin is an energy transfer device. It moves forward from the energy of an impact from a hammer.
A striker performs the same function, but is propelled forward by a compressed spring, not from being hit by a hammer.
I guess, this is like the clip vs magazine disscussions that come up occasionally. Everybody will know what you're talking about if you say firing pin instead of striker.
Most bolt rifles also use a striker instead of a firing pin.
A striker performs the same function, but is propelled forward by a compressed spring, not from being hit by a hammer.
I guess, this is like the clip vs magazine disscussions that come up occasionally. Everybody will know what you're talking about if you say firing pin instead of striker.
Most bolt rifles also use a striker instead of a firing pin.