Don't Talk To The Police!

[MauiDoc]

yeeps

Good points....I have nothing against the PD as a general rule (my brother is a CHP, and a damn good one!), but this points out some of the definite weak spots in their function as crime-solvers and perp-snaggers. I'll keep my mouth shut and 'lawyer-up', thank you very much!

Doc
_____________

 

[HarrySchell]

Don't believe I've ever seen so many paranoid people in one place.

Well, in CA and related to firearms, the common attitude I have encountered is from suspicion to outright "you're dangerous" when talking to non-LEO's about being a shooter. Statements from people like the LA Mayor, Chief of LAPD and Sherriff Lee Baca re concealed carry and self-defense are not supportive.

The video of CHP officers slamming an older woman to the floor to help Ray Nagin disarm civilians after Katrina is well within the "it can happen here" range in CA. Details omitted, I have met some great LEO's and some scary bums. Since it is unlikely you will know right off which you are dealing with, you need to exercise care.

If you want to call that paranoia, up to you.

 

[RedneckFur]

Don't believe I've ever seen so many paranoid people in one place.

How is exercising a constitutional right paranoid?

The gun grabbers think we're paranoid for exercising one of our rights too. Perhaps they're right?

 

[Dearhunter61]

paranoid people

It is always the one who has not experienced it to make a statement like this...

I am sure sasquatch lives in a perfect world where everyone is honest and hard working. All cops tell the truth etc etc etc...

Man what a fantasy world.

Can you please give me the address...I want to move there. Heck there are probably a lot of folks that want to live in your world. Any room?

Do you own a TV? Do you see what is happening all across the country with people being wrongly convicted? Only to be set free a couple of decades later after DNA proves they are innocent?

Did you watch OJ's Trial and the cop admitting to lying?

Boy someone is real naive here.

I hope you never happen to be on the wrong side of something like this.

 

[pax]

Don't believe I've ever seen so many paranoid people in one place.

Didn't bother watching the video, did you?



(Excellent, excellent law lecture. Thanks for posting that link, Sholling!)

pax

 

[.300H&H]

Anecdotal...

A few years back, I moved back to my old hometown, a small semirural environment... I was driving through town one night, and noticed a car without its headlights on...was following me. Suddenly the blue lights came on; it was a police car. I pulled over... The police officer comes up to my window and says he's been following me since I did not come to a complete stop at the stop sign about 2 blocks back. Hmmmmmm...I had in fact stopped at the stop sign...and there's not any traffic on the road...so I disputed the allegation. The officer then started screaming at me. Yep! He screamed! I didn't scream..but he was a nut. He seemed to be trying to provoke a 'fight.'

He called for other officers...and suddenly my car was swarmed by 3 other patrol cars...and one officer was slapping a night stick in his palm. An officer approached my window...and talked to me...and then had a peculiar heated conversation with the cop that stopped me. I was given a ticket for 'failing to come to a complete stop...'They wished me a pleasant evening...


I went to court. The officer was not present, and I was found not guilty...but when I tried to explain how I didn't like the way I had been treated...the JUDGE condescendingly explained that the officer's wife was having a baby and couldn't attend court today... Hmmmm....as if to say 'We wouldn't believe you if he were here.'


About a year later that cop and his partner were on trial for murdering a man they had pulled over and beat to death. One is serving a life term and the other is still on trial for it. Hmmmm....they had also been just fired from my local police department...and were working for a smaller police department when they committed the murder.... I noticed that the cop that I had encountered was involved in quite a few peculiar heroic situations ie.one in which a suspect dragged him down the road when he tried to make an arrest.... This cop was just a bit 'too zealous.' He stopped me three times
after the first encounter....always just to 'see where I was going...' I complained but was given the condescending cold shoulder of disbelief by the local pd....but apparaently bad karma caught up with him...and he's now living in a wonderful state prison.


Do I always trust the police? No. Do I sometimes trust the police? Yes.


Sometimes it's good to talk...and sometimes it's best to stay very quiet. Quiet usually has the house advantage...but not always.


Let this be a lesson: If you carry a gun in your car, make sure it's where it's supposed to be ie. locked up and out of sight...and LEGAL. And call for an Officer In Charge if you have a weird/bad encounter. Can you imagine what might have happened if the bad cop had spotted a firearm or anything he could have used to get me into serious trouble?

 

[Alleykat]

I didn't watch the video either, because I already knew how cops behave. Can't think of many things to talk with cops about...ever.

 

[pax]

If you did not actually watch the video, you really don't have anything to contribute to this particular conversation and should go start your own thread instead of cluttering this one with inanities.

Here's a hint: It has nothing WHATSOEVER to do with how cops behave. Or about how awful some small-town cop was on a dark night in Hicksburg. Or about how some schmuck shouldn't have mouthed off to the po-po. Or about police brutality. Or about hating the establishment, or about how we should all hold hands and sing kumbayah, or about how much some people just hate the police but will be the first to call when they get in trouble, or about how 911 can't save you, or about ...

Sheesh, people. Go watch the darn video. There's a slight risk you might learn something and I guess that's a downside for some, but if you can face that horrible risk, you might actually enjoy the presentation.

pax

 

[Dearhunter61]

PAX

WOW!!!!

That is telling it like it is....man I do not ever want to be on your bad side...

 

[sholling]

I look at it this way... the ones that make snide comments because they are just 'too smart' to watch the video are the same ones that are 'too smart' to lawyer up and shut up when time comes that they need to. Another case of I don't have any problem with Darwinism and there isn't much opportunity to breed (successfully) in prison.

 

[STAGE 2]

Boy someone is real naive here.

Not really. Blanket statements always have problems. "Don't talk to the police" is a blanket statement.

You'd better believe that if I'm involved in a shooting that I'm going to say something when the police roll up. From their perspective there is a guy with a gun (me) and a dead guy (the perp). For all they know I could be a mugger, or whatever. Giving a wee bit of perspective won't hurt anything

And this idea that speaking to the police is giving up your rights is poppycock. I can terminate the conversation any time I wish and I can tell them as little or as much as I want. Understanding your rights is far more important than knee jerk reactions or advise.

We hate it when folks characterize all gun owners as redneck wackos, so lets stop painting all police as gestapo interrogators.

 

[STAGE 2]

Sheesh, people. Go watch the darn video. There's a slight risk you might learn something

True, but the counterpoint is that the opinion of a single law professor and police officer does not constitute a majority, a consensus or even an established fact. Grains of salt are best when liberally spread on both sides.

 

[cool hand luke 22:36]

I can terminate the conversation any time I wish and I can tell them as little or as much as I want

True. But that doesn't immunize you against a detective misremembering or misinterpreting what you tell them. Absent a recording, whose testimony do you think would carry more weight at trial?

This issue was discussed at length in the video. Did you watch it?

 

[sholling]

And this idea that speaking to the police is giving up your rights is poppycock. I can terminate the conversation any time I wish and I can tell them as little or as much as I want.

I can see sir that you are much too smart take the advice of a "single law professor" or a police officer, or even the advice of Supreme Court Justices. After all what would they know about such things? You go right ahead and talk to the nice police officer - after all you're in control. You shoot people every day and wouldn't let a little thing like a dead body in your kitchen fluster you. And besides you're much smarter than that twenty year police veteran. We'll make an exception for you... you go right ahead and talk to the nice policeman.

 

[STAGE 2]

True. But that doesn't immunize you against a detective misremembering or misinterpreting what you tell them. Absent a recording, whose testimony do you think would carry more weight at trial?

This issue was discussed at length in the video. Did you watch it?

Yes I watched it. Of course, the potential for the cop "misremembering" is there whether you speak or not. If they are going to "misremember" what you said, there isn't anything stopping them from "misremembering" that you didn't say anything at all.

As far as who's testimony carrys more weight at trial, it depends. However if everything I say lines up with all the physical evidence, then I'm not to worried about what johnny law has to say.

I can see sir that you are much too smart take the advice of a "single law professor" or a police officer, or even the advice of Supreme Court Justices. After all what would they know about such things? You go right ahead and talk to the nice police officer - after all you're in control. You shoot people every day and wouldn't let a little thing like a dead body in your kitchen fluster you. And besides you're much smarter than that twenty year police veteran. We'll make an exception for you... you go right ahead and talk to the nice policeman.

Well, I listened to the advise of the professor and the police officer, but I'm inclined to give more weight to my own experience with police officers. Granted it wasn't 20 years worth, but then again I have a perspective different from that of both the law professor (remember he was a defense attorney) as well as the cop. You see, the police aren't the ones that can ruin your day, the prosecutor is.

From this experience I didn't see anything that made me believe that cops as a whole were 'out to get people'. Quite the opposite, most of them were doing the job because they had a desire to help folks. As with everything there sure were bad apples, but again its the exception and not the rule.

On top of my own experience, my father was a cop as well as a federal agent. My uncle was a cop and I have several college buddies that are cops. This issue isn't a new one and I've talked to them about it before, and they all think its hogwash. Between them theres close to 75 years of experience so that should placate your fears about validity and certianly outranks someone with only 2 decades under his belt.


If for nothing else, if your theory holds true, jails should be full of people who where 'tricked' into their convictions. Thats simply not the case.

It should be noted that I'm not saying that you should run your mouth about everything or everytime. Nor do I have any objection over someone who exercises their rights immediately. What I do object to is this idea the you should never talk to the police. Its a conclusion based on a faulty premise and isn't practical in every situation.

 

[pax]

STAGE 2,

Sometimes it's hard to hear what people are actually saying on a subject we've been hurt with before. When someone's taken a piece of coarse sandpaper to your sunburn, you're not likely to be thinking about much of anything else.

But all the same, slow down a bit, please.

Why did you use scare quotes around "misremembered"? Are you implying that police officers don't have ordinary human memories, and that if any officer's recollection is different from someone else's, the officer simply has to be lying??! If so, you're the only person (who actually watched the video) saying so. And I cannot believe you even went there, given the lengthy and very persuasive illustration on the video about how human memory works and how easy it is to get it wrong even when we're trying not to.

The cop's job is to investigate the crime, write down or record what you say, and hand the whole mess over to a prosecutor who remains in office only as long as he gets a good conviction rate. The motives for why these guys do what they do doesn't really matter. No, I'll go one step further. Most cops I've ever met were motivated very strongly by improving society, by the adrenalin rush of doing the job and making a difference in the world around them. Most prosecutors really believe they're performing a necessary task (and they are!) and that the people they put in jail are in fact guilty -- if not of the specific crime they're first charged with, they're probably guilty of a lesser, included offense and that's why the plea bargain system works. But the motives for doing the job really don't matter. All that really matters is, what the job is and has to be, by nature.

The cop collects evidence. It's not his job to determine guilt or innocence. He investigates a crime, looks for a likely perpetrator, and hands the evidence of that person's guilt along to the prosecutor's office.

The prosecutor looks at the evidence and decides whether or not to charge. Then he prosecutes the case using the evidence the cop handed in.

At the end of the day, the evidence the cop hands in can and will be used by the prosecutor. It will not be particularly helpful to the defense attorney because the cop's job is NOT to look for evidence of innocence, but to find the perpetrator of a crime.

You can hate that or love it, but there's no sense taking it personally. It's the way the system works ...

pax

 

[SkySlash]

Excellent videos, thank you for linking them.

That was quite possibly the best summarized legal advice I've yet seen on the topic.

-SS

 

[STAGE 2]

Why did you use scare quotes around "misremembered"? Are you implying that police officers don't have ordinary human memories, and that if any officer's recollection is different from someone else's, the officer simply has to be lying??! If so, you're the only person (who actually watched the video) saying so. And I cannot believe you even went there, given the lengthy and very persuasive illustration on the video about how human memory works and how easy it is to get it wrong even when we're trying not to.

Well, as there are several people here who have alleged that its SOP for police to lie, thats what the quotes were for. I'm fully aware that police are human beings, subject to the same limitations as the rest of us. Regardless, whether the cop in question misremembers because he truly is mistaken or is lying, the potential for this exists whether you say something or not.

At the end of the day, the evidence the cop hands in can and will be used by the prosecutor. It will not be particularly helpful to the defense attorney because the cop's job is NOT to look for evidence of innocence, but to find the perpetrator of a crime.

You can hate that or love it, but there's no sense taking it personally. It's the way the system works ...

I'm very much aware of how the justice system works having been a part of it. And its from this experience that I can say that 98.6% of cops aren't out there to looking to pin something on someone.

Using a defensive shooting as an example, if someone is dead or shot, its pretty clear that a crime has been committed. There isn't anything the police need to manufacture for this. Their problem is figuring out whether the guy with the gun was the attacker or the guy on the ground. If its a clear cut shooting (my wife was a witness, the knife is still in the guys hand/on the ground, he's got a rap sheet) I can save myself a whole mess of grief by giving a short summary of what happened.

In other words, there are situations in which its probably helpful to talk to police. Saying no in all cases just isn't productive.

 

[sholling]

I can save myself a whole mess of grief by giving a short summary of what happened.

In most places & cases this is simply a myth. If you've killed someone the odds are you're going in to the station for a long night of questions. Why not let your lawyer meet you there and do the talking? For those in a state without a castle doctrine you are going to get sued. It's not even a question of maybe - you will be sued, and every bit of your statements to the police will be used against you. But please go ahead and speak to the police and forgive the rest of us for following sound legal advice.

God I love Darwin!

 

[.300H&H]

Every situation is a little different. One Video? LOL. Sometimes it's good to talk and sometimes it's not so good to talk. It depends on what your talking about - and the exact situation. One size does not fit all. Afterall, it's not just about 'memory' - but agendas, preconceived notions,mistaken identities, and the fact that if you don't clarify a situation...somebody else<not your magical lawyer> might talk and do all the 'clarifying' for you at the scene. The blanket statement of 'never talking to a police officer without a magic lawyer' might serve some cases...but it just might worsen some other situations.


Also - is it possible to be a mute zombie? A police officer can misremember your body language, your demeanor...and how you chose 'not to say anything at the time.' Your not saying anything can be misremembered as your being 'aloof' or 'uncoperative' or being 'suspicious.' If you say NOTHING except I WANT MY LAWYER...that might not look so good down the road...ie. How did the defendant react? Oh he refused<if I remember right> to talk; he just kept saying 'I really need a lawyer this time...and seemed to be really angry. He muttered something.'


If you choose not to say anything, you leave everything in the hands of other people at the scene to say things for you...and sometimes that's not a good thing to do. Now, if you're guilty as sin, I'd say by all means you should not say anything, and you should just get with your lawyer asap...unless you already have a premeditated airtight alibi.:barf:


At some point, you will have to explain things. At the scene your name and a brief description of who you are and what happened might just keep you out of more complicated trouble. A Bad Cop is not going to be any nicer if you don't say anything. In fact, a Bad Cop might just make up a few things for you to have said. Might even make his/her paperwork a little easier...and then you'll have to explain how you didn't say anything at all at the scene when the Bad Cop says you said a few things.


Johnny, did you hit that baseball that went through the window?
Johnny's answer of 'I'm not talking until I've talked to a lawyer...' might not be such a good answer. You certainly have the right not to talk...
Lawyers give a lot of good advice and 20/20 legal hindsight is wonderful. Lots of brilliant lawyers in jail too!


Last 'mugging' I saw the little gang members were saying the victim was the perpetrator and had harrassed the 'alleged mugger.' If not for the true victim explaining what had happened and being much more credible - what then?
The victim's statement jived with what was suspected - and the little gang members were carted off to jail for curfew violation...while we hunted for the real mugger, th actual perpetrator.