Do you believe it?

[Pointer]

Does anyone know the true story?

I heard that they had waited for a very long time for the shot to present itself.

The target was supposed to have been a female leader of somekind.

They finally decided to take the only shot presented to them... on a moving bicycle.

He miraculously hit the bike and after the target was stopped, it was the second shot that killed the woman.

("So much for one shot one kill.")

I really hate being misled with "war stories".

Does anyone know that actual story?

Yes, I believe it could be done by the right shooter with the right rifle and the right cartridge and the right weather and light conditions with the right scope.

I have witnessed some really "magical" shots...

The 1000 yard benchresters have placed groups of 7mm bullets pushed from .300 Weatherby cases inside of nine inches at that distance.

Civil War snipers were known to make 1000 - 1500 yard kills with weapons and optics far inferior to modern equipment.

Yes, with a 50 cal. machine-cannon round, I am confident that it can be done!

However, any sniper/hunter worth his salt, would close on the target if there was any chance at all to do so.

Does anyone know the true story?

 

[Magnum88C]

IIRC, it was a shot made from an American firebase, not the field, the gun was scoped and sighted in for that range (being made from a fire base, it was a known distance, he didn't have to range, he had to dope the wind). The shot was at a STOPPED target, and he didn't hit the VC, he hit the bike. If you've ever heard/read interviews with Mr. Hathcock, he attributed a lot of his more astounding feats to luck and really good SWAGing in the field. He also admitted to missing a lot more than books about him (for obvious reasons) will admit.

Please remember, he was blazing trail. The stuff guys are taught nowadays is what those guys in 'Nam were making up as they went, they had a much tougher job then, as they had to both make up tactics as well as get results, real time, when it was for blood, not practicing on a range.

 

[stephen426]

Two Thumbs Up for Mike40-11

g=acceleration of gravity=32.2 ft/sec^2
Velocity=accel*time=32.2*3=96.6 ft/sec
Avg velocity=final velocity/2=48.3 ft/sec
Distance traveled(vertically)=3 sec*48.3 ft/sec=145.2 ft
I'm speaking only of travel in the vertical direction, which is independent of the lateral travel.

Now, that's if you start out with the bullet traveling flat. In practice, it first travels upwards then back down. If the launch and impact point are at the same height, the bullet would rise 72.6 feet, then fall back down. Because of the shape of the trajectory however, your aim point would be the 145.2 ft high. This will change as the relative heights of the launch and impact point changes.

As far as MOA goes, call the range 2500 yards and the kill zone a generous 1 foot wide, use the rule of thumb that 1 MOA=1 inch at 100 yards and you get roughly .5 MOA to hit that target repeatably. Anybody think the Ma Deuce is a 0.5 MOA rifle?

Possible? Certainly. Repeatable? No way. Plenty of skill AND luck.

 

[jtb1967]

I'd say he either go very, very lucky, or the story is a load of hogwash. Probably the later.

 

[45 Fu]

I believe he made it. Like anything, there is a certain amount of luck involved. But, you take a man who knows his weapon - including its limitations as well as its strengths - as well as his own skills (the same applies), put him in an environment that allows him to experiment and sharpen those skills, and you have the potential for virtuosity. Hathcock's skills were not built in the Corps, they were built in childhood where missing meant not eating. That is motivation to learn. The Corps simply took what was there and made it better.

I'm not saying he could make the shot every day at will. But just because something seems hard for us to believe, due to our limited skills or experience, doesn't make it impossible to those who are out there doing it.

What is happening to Hathcock's legend is the same thing that happens to men when they, or what they do, becomes much larger than themselves. They seem larger than life so they become larger than life. As someone stated above, all the guys going through sniper schools owe a huge debt to Hathcock and the others that wrote sniper doctrine/practice back in Vietnam.

Give a man who believes he can do the impossible the opportunity to prove it,and he likely will.

 

[artsmom]

I don't suppose some of you would care to go get the book from the library and read about the shot before commenting?

I believe that the key for such a long shot was neither the scope nor the cartridge (although both were indispensable) but the fact that the gun was set up rock solid on a tripod, and the tripod for an M2 (or even the .30 M1917) is ROCK SOLID when set up right and levelled. Once the shot was zeroed in with the ranging shots the day before with everything tightened down, the shot would only have wind, mirage, and temperature conditions to deal with as variables. And since Hathcock was a national champion target shooter (Wimbledon Cup, 1,000 yards, 1965) as well as a sniper, he should have been able to handle those. The fact that Hathcock had a mount and a scope for the M2 shows he wasn't just pulling a trick shot out of his rear end, but that he had a plan and a means to carry it out to a successful conclusion.

If I remember the story as related in the book "Marine Sniper: 93 Confirmed Kills" his first shot was an attempt to get the kid to leave the bike loaded with gear and escape with his life. When the kid picked up the AK, he was shot.

Hathcock also used the tripod trick on an M40 106mm recoiless rifle to zap a sniper. He crawled out in No Man's land, found the sniper's regular shooting place, came back and boresighted the 106 on the place, tightened and locked the tripod adjustments, loaded a round, and told the Marines not to screw with it and to always have a guy within arm's reach of the lanyard, and when the sniper fires, fire the recoiless rifle immediately, and the shot should take care of itself. Which, according to the book, is what happened, as the 106mm recoiless round not needing gilt edge accuracy with either the high explosive or flechette round.

Hathcock was not so much as a magician as a technician. He never used a Model 70 when a battery of 105's could do it easier and more efficiently.

 

[Webleywielder]

What Artsmom said.

I still have the book and a few old magazine articles I clipped out. They support what Artsmom posted.

I fired a M40 106mm Recoiless Rifle at Fort Bragg. Because of the backblast few larger weapons match its awesome display of power. It is not as pleasant to fire as the M67 90mm. I could do that all day. However, the M40 is more than accurate enough for Hathcock's counter-sniper fire. By the way, I was taught at SOTIC you never return to the same hide unless you want to be dead soon.

"In a world devoid of semiautomatics, a properly set-up Webley is the ultimate full-size self-defense handgun".

 

[Jseime]

He never used a Model 70 when a battery of 105's could do it easier and more efficiently.

I like it


personally the 2500 yard shot seems to be just for the sake of shooting at 2500 yards. he could obviously be sneaky enough to get closer nine times out of ten.

 

[stephen426]

I have a comment for the people who say that the sniper should have gotten close. From what I know, very few snipers use supressors. The target is dead before they ever hear the shot. The problem is that they have to get the hell out of dodge before they locate where the shot came from. If the sniper moved it closer, they may have a hard time getting away safely. How many military snipers feel their target's life is worth getting captured or killed over? I'm not trying to flame but just offering a different perspective.

 

[Olaf]

All I can say at this point is.... man, that Browning M2/ .50 cal "sniper rifle" must have been a b***h to lug around, in the field. I bet even Hathcock would be a bit tired after an all-day hunt with one of those.

The other observation I must make is that, even setting up such a weapon, for such shooting, is ridiculous...and a waste of time. At 2500 yards, the logical weapon, especially if it was possible to register on the crossroads, in advance...would have been an 81mm mortar - using an anti-personnel round. Gee, I bet they even had a couple of those laying around...at the firebase. Ya think ? A 60mm mortar might even have worked - but, I think 2500 yards is a bit beyond it's max. range. IF there
is ANY truth to this story at all....it certainly sounds like Carlos was playing with his d**k, that day.

 

[longspurr]

For those really interested in hearing from Carlos Hathcock himself on the 2500-yard shot and other happenings during that time there is a VHS tape.
MARINE SNIPER LEGEND – CARLOS HATHCOCK
Put out by L.O.T.I group films. Major John Plaster is the narrator and asking questions of Carlos. I don’t have the equipment to extract that part of the tape and make it into a film clip to share. Perhaps someone else on the board does.

If I remember the tape / book Carlos said they were experimenting with the technology they had to see what worked and what didn’t. Skill & planning go a long way towards having a Lucky event happen. As 45 FU said the guns and tactics used today are the result of experiments back then. Others that deal in weapon development apparently believe a 50 Cal can be effective waaaaay out there since we now have snipers issued 50 cal rifles.
To paraphrase Carlos “ it’s amazingly cost effective to deploy a sniper with a rifle and let him deny large sections of ground to the enemy”.

 

[artsmom]

Olaf, a mortar gives off a distinctive "thunk" when being fired, and a quick study can get to cover before the shell lands. Besides, what makes you think he had access to a mortar?

Also, where did you get the idea that he "lugged" the tripod .50 caliber around by hand?

Try not to be so sarcastic while being devoid of so many facts, lest we think the "L" in your sig is a typo.

 

[Arc Angel]

For most gunmen - No! For Carlos Hathcock - Yes! Such a shot IS possible; and, there are other records from the old West of buffalo hunters who were, also, able to make shots like this. If you think this is an impossible shot, maybe, you should think again.

 

[Pointer]

Magnum88C

Thanks

 

[LAK]

Discerning a man size target at 2,500 yards even with good glass is can be difficult under field conditions - depends on the glass used of course. But the other question is what reticle was used? Even the finest reticle or dot subtends alot of square feet at 2,500 yards. Possible, but I am sceptical.

 

[Picher]

Can't say I believe some of these stories in full. As stories get told, they get better and better. I've seen it happen with shots I've made that were witnessed. The "witnesses" make the shot a little longer each time the story is told. However, when a good shot has the opportunity to practice at long range, seemingly impossible shots become possible, and luck takes your side.

I was a late teenager and shot a lot in the early 60's. I remember a woodchuck kill at 550 yards with a .30-06, using a 2.5X Weaver scope and a bipod rest, shooting 125 gr Sierra spitzers ahead of 53 grains of IMR 4064, I think (a favorite). The rifle was a (self) glass-bedded, free-floated Savage 110 in a custom stock that shot better than 1/2 min. groups. (That means that at 500 yards, under ideal conditions, group size was 2.7+/- inches, but the maximum dispersion from center was only 1 1/4 inches.)

Knowing the trajectory of my round, I held 5 feet high and 8 inches left to allow for bullet rotation. The crosshair was large but was not obscuring the target. I was on another hill, so there was "clean" air between us. There was no perceptable crosswind or mirage. It was the second shot, the first being spotted by someone with binoculars. The first shot was about 15" low and the chuck went into his den, then re-appeared a few minutes later, laying sideways at the top of his very large mound that was situated on a hillside. No, I couldn't see him, but used the top of the mound as reference.

After correcting POA, the next shot cleaned him off the mound. A week later I repeated the shot on a skunk that was waddling around the same area (no sighters). True, that's nowhere near 2500 yards, but it was about 1/5 the distance at target sizes that were much less than 1/5 the size of a person. So, I believe a lot of the stories of super long kills. Besides, no one tells stories about the many misses that must have taken place. Ya gotta get lucky sooner or later.

What really amazed me was what we, as IHMSA handgun silhouette shooters, were able to accomplish with open-sighted revolvers at 200 meters (in the 1970's). I shot one 6-shot group from a prone position on a clamped-down ram target (200m) with my 10.5" barrelled Ruger .44 Mag. that measured 3 1/2 INCHES! That was using home-cast, gas-checked 240 grain bullets. A friend, who was the State Offhand Champ made a group on a ram that measured 6" OFFHAND with his TC. (Through a spotting scope, with the afternoon sun behind us, we could actually watch .44 cal. jacketed or gas-checked bullets fly to the target like tracers. Really cool!)

A believer of some of the long-shot stories!!!

Picher

 

[K80Geoff]

A Browning M2 on a Tripod with a T & E (Traversing and Elevating) mechanism attached is extreemly accurate. The gun would be sandbagged (or even have a solid mount of cement with the tripod set in it). It would be easy at a firebase to set up an M2 so equipped to fire at specific targets (Known as setting up a range card). Distances to terrain features around the base would be measured off accurately. Cannon cockers amd Mortar Maggots do this regularly. The Redlegs even have survey crews to do this.

The gun could easily accomplish a kill like this. Especially if used by an experienced shooter like Hathcock.

I am also betting that the distance was measured right after the kill.

 

[oneeyeross]

Nicknames

Mortar maggots.....Man, haven't heard that term in YEARS....reminds me of those combat support company types way back when.....course, those 4.2" could have been life extenders if we'd ever had to fill the Fulda Gap.

Those were the good old days. Cold war was on, we'd have alerts and combat load those big steel monsters with the 152mm rounds and head for the border....and that is not a taco commercial!

1/32 Armor, the first and BEST M60A2 battalion in USAEUR!

 

[Tim R]

I had a signed copy of the book until the wife decided to clean the book case one day.....I'm still mad.

I met Carlos in Virginia during the 1990 All Navy. I have no doubt he made the shot. I've also shot the Wimbleton and that's no cake walk.

I was more impressed with the through the scope shot when he got the VC sniper that was stalking him.

 

[Mike Hull]

Artsmom had it right, all the way.

The shot was witnessed so I can't understand the doubters. The M2 was setup solid, he was on a small hilltop firebase, he had all the tools, like range finders, angle cosine figured, etc., to easily make the shot.

Nobody seems to doubt the Canadian snipers hit with a much lighter .50BMG sniper rifle at almost the same yardage in Afganistan, so why the problems believing Carlos Hathcock, and the people that witnessed his shot?

BTW, they figure his actual kill count at above 300, but he either didn't have a spotter as a witness, or just didn't record them for whatever reason, so he never claimed them. He was not a person given to lying.