Do you believe it?
- Thread starter cheygriz
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22-rimfire
New member
I also believe he made that shot. Snipers don't misjudge the range.
locked'n'cocked
New member
dumb question but what is the M2 chambered for? gotta be something big to shoot 2500 yards with it.
I heard that the actual story was that Hatchcock shot the VC guy at 25 yards....after Hathcock, drunk, came out of a bar in Saigon...and found the VC guy stealing his bike. THAT story wouldn't look too good in Stars and Stripes...or, in books extolling the wondrousness of Sgt. Hathcock, would it ?
Webleywielder
Moderator
All the snipers I used to know misjudged range on a regular basis.
The shot with the Ma Duece half incher is within the realm of possibility however improbable. I give him the benefit of the doubt. I read Henderson's book about Hathcock "Marine Sniper -93 Confirmed Kills" while assigned to SOTIC, a sniper school at Ft. Bragg's USAJFKSWC. One glaring inaccuracy was the statement on page 79, paragraph 5, about scope maker John Unertl being a WWI sniper. I would not doubt that other inaccuracies and exaggerations exist based on this example of an easily determined falsehood. It is my understanding that Hathcock is no longer considered to be top scoring sniper of Vietnam.
"In a world devoid of semiautomatics, a properly set-up Webley is the ultimate full-size self-defense handgun".
The shot with the Ma Duece half incher is within the realm of possibility however improbable. I give him the benefit of the doubt. I read Henderson's book about Hathcock "Marine Sniper -93 Confirmed Kills" while assigned to SOTIC, a sniper school at Ft. Bragg's USAJFKSWC. One glaring inaccuracy was the statement on page 79, paragraph 5, about scope maker John Unertl being a WWI sniper. I would not doubt that other inaccuracies and exaggerations exist based on this example of an easily determined falsehood. It is my understanding that Hathcock is no longer considered to be top scoring sniper of Vietnam.
"In a world devoid of semiautomatics, a properly set-up Webley is the ultimate full-size self-defense handgun".
stephen426
New member
Do the math... Is it possible?
That is a really far shot. How much energy is left after that distance? I'm sure there would be a hell of a big difference in the wound between 25 yards and 2,500 yards. At 25 yards, the .50 BMG should have cut him in half. At 2,500 yards, it probably just put a hole in him. The shot should have taken over 3 seconds to reach the guy. The velocity of the .50 BMG is about 3,000 feet per second. 2,500 yards is 7,500 feet. I'm not sure what speed the bullet slows down to based on wind resistance but it sure as heck isn't still moving at 3,000 feet per second. On a moving target, such as a guy on a bike, it sounds impossible. I'd say it was a lucky shot if it was truly at that distance. Ever hear about that fish I caught... it get bigger every time I tell the story. The only thing bigger is his ego I'm sure!
That is a really far shot. How much energy is left after that distance? I'm sure there would be a hell of a big difference in the wound between 25 yards and 2,500 yards. At 25 yards, the .50 BMG should have cut him in half. At 2,500 yards, it probably just put a hole in him. The shot should have taken over 3 seconds to reach the guy. The velocity of the .50 BMG is about 3,000 feet per second. 2,500 yards is 7,500 feet. I'm not sure what speed the bullet slows down to based on wind resistance but it sure as heck isn't still moving at 3,000 feet per second. On a moving target, such as a guy on a bike, it sounds impossible. I'd say it was a lucky shot if it was truly at that distance. Ever hear about that fish I caught... it get bigger every time I tell the story. The only thing bigger is his ego I'm sure!
More fodder for discussion:
What about the shot where he got the sniper that was stalking him through the lense of the scope (recreated in the Tom Berringer movie "SNIPER")?
Yes, a sniper named Chuck Mawhinney (I think) beat him on quantity. He killed many in one outing after waiting until the enemy were crossing a river, and opened up on them in mid-stream. No where to go.
What about the shot where he got the sniper that was stalking him through the lense of the scope (recreated in the Tom Berringer movie "SNIPER")?
Yes, a sniper named Chuck Mawhinney (I think) beat him on quantity. He killed many in one outing after waiting until the enemy were crossing a river, and opened up on them in mid-stream. No where to go.
Having known
more than a few snipers/sharpshooters, both military and police, I find it improbable but not impossible (they would say the same thing). Out to about 5-600 yards its easy to judge distance, windage, etc. if you're experienced...Out to 1000 yards, its a bit dicier as any errors are magnifying with distance...Beyond that the "luck factor" comes heavily into play....
more than a few snipers/sharpshooters, both military and police, I find it improbable but not impossible (they would say the same thing). Out to about 5-600 yards its easy to judge distance, windage, etc. if you're experienced...Out to 1000 yards, its a bit dicier as any errors are magnifying with distance...Beyond that the "luck factor" comes heavily into play....
Webleywielder
Moderator
How the improbable is possible.
As the story is told, Hathcock the previous day ranged the M2 at the intersection where the VC was hit. As far is energy is concerned, a 700 grain bullet dropping on you from the top of the high trajectory needed for 2500 yds is going to do more than hurt you. Ancient slingers killed at closer ranges with lead projectiles of similar weight and energy.
"In a world devoid of semiautomatics, a properly set-up Webley is the ultimate full-size self-defense handgun".
As the story is told, Hathcock the previous day ranged the M2 at the intersection where the VC was hit. As far is energy is concerned, a 700 grain bullet dropping on you from the top of the high trajectory needed for 2500 yds is going to do more than hurt you. Ancient slingers killed at closer ranges with lead projectiles of similar weight and energy.
"In a world devoid of semiautomatics, a properly set-up Webley is the ultimate full-size self-defense handgun".
So, I don't suppose you guys believe the story about the Canadian sniper in Afghanistan that made a shot of 2430 metres?
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117115&highlight=Arron+Perry
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117115&highlight=Arron+Perry
stephen426
New member
I was sleeping during some of my physics classes so I forgot how to calculate how far a bullet drops in 3 seconds. I know the acceleration due to gravity is 9.8 meters/second/second. How do you sight in for a target 2500 YARDS away??? That is almost a mile and a half away.
Calculate minute of angle just on the horizontal axis and figure what type of accuracy is needed to make this shot. The .50 is a large round and can be affected by wind. Wind often varies due to different obstacles and shifts continually.
Just because I am trying to make a basket from half court and actually make one doesn't mean it was skill. More likely, it was a fluke. Now if I made that shot consistently, that would be skill. If he really made that shot and it was really 2,500 yards, chalk that up to some serious luck. That guy was MEANT to die that day.
As for shooting the other sniper through the scope, I would believe it. Why do you think snipers dress in all that leafy camo? Beacuse it looks good and feels comfy? I highly doubt it. Snipers need excellent vision and catching the reflection off the other snipers scope allowed him to make that shot. This is another case where it was simply that guy's time.
Calculate minute of angle just on the horizontal axis and figure what type of accuracy is needed to make this shot. The .50 is a large round and can be affected by wind. Wind often varies due to different obstacles and shifts continually.
Just because I am trying to make a basket from half court and actually make one doesn't mean it was skill. More likely, it was a fluke. Now if I made that shot consistently, that would be skill. If he really made that shot and it was really 2,500 yards, chalk that up to some serious luck. That guy was MEANT to die that day.
As for shooting the other sniper through the scope, I would believe it. Why do you think snipers dress in all that leafy camo? Beacuse it looks good and feels comfy? I highly doubt it. Snipers need excellent vision and catching the reflection off the other snipers scope allowed him to make that shot. This is another case where it was simply that guy's time.
Webleywielder
Moderator
More data for Stephen426
No doubt about it, more luck than skill involved.
Before the shot, the M2 equiped with a scope was sighted in on the crossroads. Some skill in reading the wind and mirage was used. A second individual using a spotting scope was involved. The luck factor was incredible. I hit a M113 used as a target on a range at Ft Bragg with a .50 cal Barrett once. The rifle was not sighted in for me. I had never fired one before. I fired twice. The second shot hit. The range was lasered at over 1700 meters. The scope was about 15X as I recall. The improbable is possible or it would be called the impossible. Again if the Hathcock story is true, it was mostly due to luck.
"In a world devoid of semiautomatics, a properly set-up Webley is the ultimate full-size self-defense handgun".
No doubt about it, more luck than skill involved.
Before the shot, the M2 equiped with a scope was sighted in on the crossroads. Some skill in reading the wind and mirage was used. A second individual using a spotting scope was involved. The luck factor was incredible. I hit a M113 used as a target on a range at Ft Bragg with a .50 cal Barrett once. The rifle was not sighted in for me. I had never fired one before. I fired twice. The second shot hit. The range was lasered at over 1700 meters. The scope was about 15X as I recall. The improbable is possible or it would be called the impossible. Again if the Hathcock story is true, it was mostly due to luck.
"In a world devoid of semiautomatics, a properly set-up Webley is the ultimate full-size self-defense handgun".
Stephen:
Call the travel time 3 seconds...
g=acceleration of gravity=32.2 ft/sec^2
Velocity=accel*time=32.2*3=96.6 ft/sec
Avg velocity=final velocity/2=48.3 ft/sec
Distance traveled(vertically)=3 sec*48.3 ft/sec=145.2 ft
I'm speaking only of travel in the vertical direction, which is independent of the lateral travel.
Now, that's if you start out with the bullet traveling flat. In practice, it first travels upwards then back down. If the launch and impact point are at the same height, the bullet would rise 72.6 feet, then fall back down. Because of the shape of the trajectory however, your aim point would be the 145.2 ft high. This will change as the relative heights of the launch and impact point changes.
As far as MOA goes, call the range 2500 yards and the kill zone a generous 1 foot wide, use the rule of thumb that 1 MOA=1 inch at 100 yards and you get roughly .5 MOA to hit that target repeatably. Anybody think the Ma Deuce is a 0.5 MOA rifle?
Possible? Certainly. Repeatable? No way. Plenty of skill AND luck.
Call the travel time 3 seconds...
g=acceleration of gravity=32.2 ft/sec^2
Velocity=accel*time=32.2*3=96.6 ft/sec
Avg velocity=final velocity/2=48.3 ft/sec
Distance traveled(vertically)=3 sec*48.3 ft/sec=145.2 ft
I'm speaking only of travel in the vertical direction, which is independent of the lateral travel.
Now, that's if you start out with the bullet traveling flat. In practice, it first travels upwards then back down. If the launch and impact point are at the same height, the bullet would rise 72.6 feet, then fall back down. Because of the shape of the trajectory however, your aim point would be the 145.2 ft high. This will change as the relative heights of the launch and impact point changes.
As far as MOA goes, call the range 2500 yards and the kill zone a generous 1 foot wide, use the rule of thumb that 1 MOA=1 inch at 100 yards and you get roughly .5 MOA to hit that target repeatably. Anybody think the Ma Deuce is a 0.5 MOA rifle?
Possible? Certainly. Repeatable? No way. Plenty of skill AND luck.
Whitefeather.........
My friend said it after I made a
skilled (with lots of luck) shot on a running caribou at 165 yards (Dean's pace count)
Rog, your one damn good shot.........I winked at him and said Dean, I couldn't and don't think I would try that shot again if I had too......... Why he said........ Because I still don't know how the heck I brought that big fella down.... My heart was pounding out of my chest and I just put the crosshairs on him.....and somehow did everything right with a lot of help from everything but what I can explain........
I met White Feather while doing some military shooting on a range many years ago. When I met him I knew little of the man. I recently read the story of his time in Nam and his illness that took him. Maybe it was luck and a lot of things went right..... I guess that same luck got him out of a lot of close calls too? I will be one to say it is possible and I think it's true.... If not it sure was a good fish story
My friend said it after I made a
skilled (with lots of luck) shot on a running caribou at 165 yards (Dean's pace count)Rog, your one damn good shot.........I winked at him and said Dean, I couldn't and don't think I would try that shot again if I had too......... Why he said........ Because I still don't know how the heck I brought that big fella down.... My heart was pounding out of my chest and I just put the crosshairs on him.....and somehow did everything right with a lot of help from everything but what I can explain........
I met White Feather while doing some military shooting on a range many years ago. When I met him I knew little of the man. I recently read the story of his time in Nam and his illness that took him. Maybe it was luck and a lot of things went right..... I guess that same luck got him out of a lot of close calls too? I will be one to say it is possible and I think it's true.... If not it sure was a good fish story
CarbineCaleb
New member
+1 on that
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1026271952413_269
For those of you chalking it up to luck, the Canadian shot was legit. The first shot hit a gab the guy was carrying, knocking out of his hand. They corrected, and hit the guy the second round.
That was 2430 metres. Get practicing
For those of you chalking it up to luck, the Canadian shot was legit. The first shot hit a gab the guy was carrying, knocking out of his hand. They corrected, and hit the guy the second round.
That was 2430 metres. Get practicing
Impact of Reason
New member
my opinion... not that it matters... he really did do it. it took both skill and luck. skill to put the bullet in the general area of the guy on the bike, luck that it actually hit. seems simple enough for me.