Mike Mello
New member
Hey Thad,
How is Vu, haven't seen him since he moved out of Huntington Beach.
How is Vu, haven't seen him since he moved out of Huntington Beach.
different hand to hand disciplines?
- Thread starter ddunn
- Start date
My humble opinion - I agree with your assessment. BJJ, boxing, and Thai kickboxing would give you broad, effective skills for unarmed combat, in a relatively short time. The kickboxing should cover enough western boxing, but they often overemphasize kicking techniques because they are required in competition to land eight kicks per round - looks cool, and keeps the boxers from competing. I'd start with the kickboxing, and work in some BJJ training, say once a week. If someone tells you their style is best, smile and agree with them, but cross training is the only way to go. Every style has some bad habit that can be exploited. Just pick one and start - it's all good. dk
Hey Mike, I haven't seen Vu in a while actually, but I try to train with Roy Harris and Tom Cruse every week, usually not acheiving that goal, but I see them a lot.
I agree that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for the ground, Boxing for the fists and footwork, and Muay Thai for the clinch, elbows and kicks is a good combo. All are sports which is good and bad. Sports are good because they require a lot of full contact usage and training, and what you learn, works! Sports lack a little, IMHO, though because they fail to train you in "non-sporting" (i.e. deadly/maiming) techniques. At least the parts you do learn really work though...
JKD is "Jeet Kune Do". There are a few different lineages of JKD, but I prefer the one that decends from Dan Inosanto to Paul Vunak which is called "Jeet Kune Do Concepts" and often called "Progressive Fighting Systems" because that is the company the Paul Vunak started. You can pick up tapes by Tom Cruse, Paul Vunak, Sharam Moosavi and Roy Harris from Panther productions to get a good feel for Jeet Kune Do Concepts.
thaddeus
I agree that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for the ground, Boxing for the fists and footwork, and Muay Thai for the clinch, elbows and kicks is a good combo. All are sports which is good and bad. Sports are good because they require a lot of full contact usage and training, and what you learn, works! Sports lack a little, IMHO, though because they fail to train you in "non-sporting" (i.e. deadly/maiming) techniques. At least the parts you do learn really work though...
JKD is "Jeet Kune Do". There are a few different lineages of JKD, but I prefer the one that decends from Dan Inosanto to Paul Vunak which is called "Jeet Kune Do Concepts" and often called "Progressive Fighting Systems" because that is the company the Paul Vunak started. You can pick up tapes by Tom Cruse, Paul Vunak, Sharam Moosavi and Roy Harris from Panther productions to get a good feel for Jeet Kune Do Concepts.
thaddeus
I would like to comment on DK2 and thaddeus.
Having practised Daito- and Hokuto("FinnJutsu")ryu Ju Jutsu and Myau Thai and Kali. (Okay some JKD-Jun Fan gung Fu and Aihendo.) I feel that one would benefit from practising some armed art in addition to the mentioned excelent combination of Kick box/some form of combat wrestle. I'm not claiming that it needs to be Kali, or Pekiti Tirsia or any other S/SE-asian thang.
But my point is that it is usefull if for nothing else to learn respect towards blades even if U aren't going to carry them.
Knowing now what I know I feel that some of the more arcane Ju-jutsu counter blade techniques might be somewhat hazardous without aid of armor.
Moreover practising with weapons might clear to some the sad fact that most "self defence techniques" taught in sport forms arent mostlikely to work against persons that have knowledge in use of arms wether learned by fighting each other or by more formal training.
I allso noticed that my friend who had only one year experience in ju-jutsu but was national medalist in youth divisions in both boxing and olympic free wrestling, wiped the floor with me and most of my clubmates while freesparring.
That's my .02$ worth
Gatt.
Having practised Daito- and Hokuto("FinnJutsu")ryu Ju Jutsu and Myau Thai and Kali. (Okay some JKD-Jun Fan gung Fu and Aihendo.) I feel that one would benefit from practising some armed art in addition to the mentioned excelent combination of Kick box/some form of combat wrestle. I'm not claiming that it needs to be Kali, or Pekiti Tirsia or any other S/SE-asian thang.
But my point is that it is usefull if for nothing else to learn respect towards blades even if U aren't going to carry them.
Knowing now what I know I feel that some of the more arcane Ju-jutsu counter blade techniques might be somewhat hazardous without aid of armor.
Moreover practising with weapons might clear to some the sad fact that most "self defence techniques" taught in sport forms arent mostlikely to work against persons that have knowledge in use of arms wether learned by fighting each other or by more formal training.
I allso noticed that my friend who had only one year experience in ju-jutsu but was national medalist in youth divisions in both boxing and olympic free wrestling, wiped the floor with me and most of my clubmates while freesparring.
That's my .02$ worth
Gatt.
Snickersnee
New member
Thadeus;
<"I say this not to argue, I love striking arts too, but it is only recently that the strikers like Maurice have started learing groundfighting to stay OFF the ground">
Actualy, grappling has been heavily emphasized in Western combative boxing for several centuries.
To cite Price's 1867 American work on the subject(actualy, work started on this one in 7 years earlier, but got delayed, what with a Civil War erupting and all);
"Wrestling is another, and in fact a very important branch of science, and for scientific purposes consists of "Side-falls," "Back-falls," and "Cross-buttocks". The latter is most generaly in use, and is one of the most dangerous falls that can be given, and one from which splendid results oft-times follow. We shall commence with "Back-falls," and bring the other in rotation. We could cite numberless cases where men have been placed hors de combat by recieving the slightest possible fall. We seriously advocate its use wherever practicable."
And from Sir Thomas Parkyn's 1727 English work;
"(G) Boxing.
1. By all means have the first Blow with your Head or Fist at his Breast, rather than at his face; which is half the Battle, by reason it strikes the Wind out of his body.
2. If you have long Hair, soap it : The best Holds are the Pinnion with your Arms at his Shoulders, and your Head in his face, or get your right Arm under his Chin, and your Left behind his Neck, and let your Arms close his Neck strait, by holding each Elbow with the contrary Hand, and crush his Neck, your Fingers in his Eyes, and your right Hand under his Chin, and your left Hand under the hinder Part of his Head ; or twist his Head round by putting your Hand to the side of his Face, and the other behind his Head."
Scads of other refferences available upon request.
<"It is like learning American boxing for the street. Boxing is a sport with rules and if used alone can be defeated by simple street tactics">
Actualy, American boxing styles, much like their parent styles in England(see Parkyns above, again), are combat-oriented, and don't follow any "rules". Price again, discussing a technique known as "Fibbing";
"After securing his head in this position you may pound away upon it very pleasantly, with the other occasionaly changing.
It will be altogether needless to say that we are referring more particularly to your pleasure, than that which your opponent may enjoy during the operation; as singularly enough this affectionate fashion of bestowing your favors, seems scarcely so agreeable to the recipient as it may be to yourself. In spite of his dislike, this may however be persisted in, either in the Prize Ring, or in a personal "scrimmage," whenever you have an oportunity for paying him such a delicate attention. If handsomely done, it will by no means improve his beauty, as it is tolerably certain to impair his temper."
Or in regards to chancery;
"We are also informed that Bill had Sullivan in this position, which would undoubtedly have gained him the prize, had not Sullivan persuaded him to let go, saying he would give in; and then he knocked Bill down for his simplicity. This second method of catching a man was also a specialty of your humble servant."
I should note that Sullivan and Bill were both sportsmen, not primarily combat-oriented. Even sport boxing is traditionaly much rougher than the "soft" modern sport.
Oh, and in response to something on KnifeForums that came up a long while ago, but isn't worth bothering to subscribe to that forum to ammend, Western boxing actualy utilizes the vertical punch almost to the exclusion of the horizontal punch, as linear vertical punches are better suited to the penetrative strikes at key targets a boxer prefers-and has been doing that for a number of centuries. See Johanne Georg Paschen, 1659.
Too many people out there who don't know the difference between the traditional combative and the recent sporting styles. True boxing, that is the combative styles, is a complete and competent system of unarmed combat, and quite definately a match for anything coming out of the East, and I'll go so far as to thrown in Brazil, and what the hell, the rest of the world too. Many Eastern martial artists have a hard enough time as is with modern sport boxers. Maybe I need to get on one of those t.v. fighting programs everyone is always talking about to demonstrate.
Which isn't to say that just because you happen to study real boxing that you can automaticaly take on and defeat any practioner of any other style, as individual competency varies from person to person in every art. It's a start though.
<"I say this not to argue, I love striking arts too, but it is only recently that the strikers like Maurice have started learing groundfighting to stay OFF the ground">
Actualy, grappling has been heavily emphasized in Western combative boxing for several centuries.
To cite Price's 1867 American work on the subject(actualy, work started on this one in 7 years earlier, but got delayed, what with a Civil War erupting and all);
"Wrestling is another, and in fact a very important branch of science, and for scientific purposes consists of "Side-falls," "Back-falls," and "Cross-buttocks". The latter is most generaly in use, and is one of the most dangerous falls that can be given, and one from which splendid results oft-times follow. We shall commence with "Back-falls," and bring the other in rotation. We could cite numberless cases where men have been placed hors de combat by recieving the slightest possible fall. We seriously advocate its use wherever practicable."
And from Sir Thomas Parkyn's 1727 English work;
"(G) Boxing.
1. By all means have the first Blow with your Head or Fist at his Breast, rather than at his face; which is half the Battle, by reason it strikes the Wind out of his body.
2. If you have long Hair, soap it : The best Holds are the Pinnion with your Arms at his Shoulders, and your Head in his face, or get your right Arm under his Chin, and your Left behind his Neck, and let your Arms close his Neck strait, by holding each Elbow with the contrary Hand, and crush his Neck, your Fingers in his Eyes, and your right Hand under his Chin, and your left Hand under the hinder Part of his Head ; or twist his Head round by putting your Hand to the side of his Face, and the other behind his Head."
Scads of other refferences available upon request.
<"It is like learning American boxing for the street. Boxing is a sport with rules and if used alone can be defeated by simple street tactics">
Actualy, American boxing styles, much like their parent styles in England(see Parkyns above, again), are combat-oriented, and don't follow any "rules". Price again, discussing a technique known as "Fibbing";
"After securing his head in this position you may pound away upon it very pleasantly, with the other occasionaly changing.
It will be altogether needless to say that we are referring more particularly to your pleasure, than that which your opponent may enjoy during the operation; as singularly enough this affectionate fashion of bestowing your favors, seems scarcely so agreeable to the recipient as it may be to yourself. In spite of his dislike, this may however be persisted in, either in the Prize Ring, or in a personal "scrimmage," whenever you have an oportunity for paying him such a delicate attention. If handsomely done, it will by no means improve his beauty, as it is tolerably certain to impair his temper."
Or in regards to chancery;
"We are also informed that Bill had Sullivan in this position, which would undoubtedly have gained him the prize, had not Sullivan persuaded him to let go, saying he would give in; and then he knocked Bill down for his simplicity. This second method of catching a man was also a specialty of your humble servant."
I should note that Sullivan and Bill were both sportsmen, not primarily combat-oriented. Even sport boxing is traditionaly much rougher than the "soft" modern sport.
Oh, and in response to something on KnifeForums that came up a long while ago, but isn't worth bothering to subscribe to that forum to ammend, Western boxing actualy utilizes the vertical punch almost to the exclusion of the horizontal punch, as linear vertical punches are better suited to the penetrative strikes at key targets a boxer prefers-and has been doing that for a number of centuries. See Johanne Georg Paschen, 1659.
Too many people out there who don't know the difference between the traditional combative and the recent sporting styles. True boxing, that is the combative styles, is a complete and competent system of unarmed combat, and quite definately a match for anything coming out of the East, and I'll go so far as to thrown in Brazil, and what the hell, the rest of the world too. Many Eastern martial artists have a hard enough time as is with modern sport boxers. Maybe I need to get on one of those t.v. fighting programs everyone is always talking about to demonstrate.
Which isn't to say that just because you happen to study real boxing that you can automaticaly take on and defeat any practioner of any other style, as individual competency varies from person to person in every art. It's a start though.
ddunn
You've asked the proper question - let me see if I can answer -
I'm not wedded to any particular style, and I'm not an expert by any means, but I've been pursuing this goal for about twenty years, since I first learned hand-to-hand in the Marines at 17. (God, has it been that long?)
All this is, of course, my opinion.
If you do not know how to fight, learn an art that will teach you to kick *ss and which will get you in shape - kick-boxing or savate or something like that - from a good instructor you respect. Also work at home on a bag learning how to hit and do pushups, situps and run - get strong and get some wind. (Of course, the best thing to do is join an elite military unit and spend three or four years doing NOTHING BUT training and fighting)
You may never have to kick *ss - I never have - but it's great for your confidence.
After that - which might take anywhere from six months (if you train every day) to several years, learn something that lets you control a situation - joint locks, takedowns, and what I've used ALL THE TIME - grab releases. The best way NOT to get in a fight is to get the guy to LET GO and walk away. Judo, jujitsu, submission wrestling, aikido - that kind of thing.
At the same time, work on your mindset - which will mature (hopefully) as your skills and confidence develop - so that you can choose the correct response to the threat - walk away, run away, hold for law enforcement, or take out as quickly and brutally as possible. If you want to be a warrior, philosopher and statesman you have to be prepared to do ANY of the above.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents
[This message has been edited by Alex (edited November 12, 1999).]
You've asked the proper question - let me see if I can answer -
I'm not wedded to any particular style, and I'm not an expert by any means, but I've been pursuing this goal for about twenty years, since I first learned hand-to-hand in the Marines at 17. (God, has it been that long?)
All this is, of course, my opinion.
If you do not know how to fight, learn an art that will teach you to kick *ss and which will get you in shape - kick-boxing or savate or something like that - from a good instructor you respect. Also work at home on a bag learning how to hit and do pushups, situps and run - get strong and get some wind. (Of course, the best thing to do is join an elite military unit and spend three or four years doing NOTHING BUT training and fighting)
You may never have to kick *ss - I never have - but it's great for your confidence.
After that - which might take anywhere from six months (if you train every day) to several years, learn something that lets you control a situation - joint locks, takedowns, and what I've used ALL THE TIME - grab releases. The best way NOT to get in a fight is to get the guy to LET GO and walk away. Judo, jujitsu, submission wrestling, aikido - that kind of thing.
At the same time, work on your mindset - which will mature (hopefully) as your skills and confidence develop - so that you can choose the correct response to the threat - walk away, run away, hold for law enforcement, or take out as quickly and brutally as possible. If you want to be a warrior, philosopher and statesman you have to be prepared to do ANY of the above.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents
[This message has been edited by Alex (edited November 12, 1999).]