Did the old-timers use lube in cap & ball revolvers?

Remington kid

New member
Wayner, Where we live is in the Appalachian Mountains in south central WV. Most of my playing with Bear is right here around my place but I like to be south Of the Elk river best. We have an area over there that takes in about 500 sg. miles of wilderness, that's about 10 miles from my house.Every now and then we have Bear come in our yard and a lot of Bob Cat lately and a few Bore. I track them all summer as a hobby and then in Oct. I hunt them with a longbow.
My Remington has 40g of pyrodex "P" and a 200g. Conical when I'm in the woods. For around the house for rattlers and copperheads I'll have my 51 Navy on my side with 22g. Pyrodex and a .380 ball. Here is a pic of a large sow with triplets I took this last summer.Mike
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tinker2

New member
Remington kid

“Are you able to shoot at all yet? Hope your healing alright, Mike”

This last Monday was the first time in over a 1/3 of a year
that I did get out and shot real lead bullets, 18 of them.
My wife took me out and set up targets for me. It was great.

I shot from a bench rest, with both hands and my hands were
rested on the bench. The gun is the Cimarron Firearms Co.
Model "P" Jr. that my wife gave me for Christmas.
Nice gun. Great wife.
http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/ModelPJr.htm
Mine is blue.

I keep healing, slooooooow but healing. Thanks for asking.

So, I am going to get a 1851 C&B this summer, but for me to
load it, I will need a loading stand. Now my good friend &
amigo and some time cohort, SixForSure has said that he
will make one for me. If of course he can figure it out first.
Not being one to waste time or raw material, he would like to
find a set of plans or drawings or a tracing that he could use.

Anyone out there got something like that? Yes I know that I
can order one but I prefer if I can, to have things that are hand
made by my friends. He also needs something to do to keep him
out of trouble.



Tinker2
 

Remington kid

New member
Tink, The healing does take time and the cabin fever really got to me in 89 after breaking my back in 3 places and a few other nasty injuries. It was a long road back and I will never be right again but I'm alive and as long as I take my time I can get around real well. If I push it I'm screwed. Give it time to heal right and it will pay off in the long run.
There is an on going discussion at this site about the bench loading tool but I don't know how much one will help you. They are cheap to make so you can always give it a try. Mike

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=182337
 

Remington kid

New member
Tink, Send me your snail mail and I'll send you one in a few days. It will take a few days for the stain or paint to dry. I have made 3 of them and they work great for my Remington .44 or my 51 Navy. It wont be hinged because there's no reason for it. I have some running around to do in the morning but I can cut it out on my band saw when I get back, glue and screw it and stain it sat. Mike
mgemind@frontiernet.net
 

GolfGuy

New member
I found an article pertinent to the chain firing topic in this thread and it supports the 'tight-ball-no-grease-needed' theroy and thought I'd post an excerpt from it. I know I'm the new guy here and don't presume know a dang thing about BP shooting (except what I've learned in this forum and searching the internet), you pro's will probably not find this as enlightening as I did. The full article can be found at the link below the excerpt.


*******************************

If you'll recall a couple of paragraphs back I mentioned a chain fire I had. It was more than one, actually, and was caused my own stupidity with regards to percussion caps. The revolver I was using at the time was a CVA copy of a .31 caliber Remington pocket revolver.

I'd made my own "wonder wads" from some thick "hat felt" punched into discs with an 8mm hole punch. The homemade wads were lubed with T/C Bore Butter and seemed to be an excellent fit in the chambers of that .31. Still, when I touched off the first shot a second chamber fired, causing the 10-grain powder charge to flatten a ball against the frame. It was disturbing to say the least! I disassembled the gun, cleaned and inspected it, and loaded again. On the second shot, a different chamber fired, repeating the scene. I decided then and there that my homemade wads weren't cutting the mustard and loaded using a daub of T/C lube over each chamber mouth, confident that the immediate problem had been solved. On the third shot the gun chain fired again. Now I was flummoxed.

It took me a minute or ten but I finally figured it out: The percussion caps were the wrong size for the nipples on the cylinder. I had run out of #10 caps and simply squeezed a #11 cap to a snug fit in the nipples. This is practice causes no harm when I use it on my side-lock .32 squirrel rifle but it proved to be a dangerous practice for revolvers. The flash and flame that engulfed the cylinder was finding its way into the opening left by my “pinching” of the oversized caps. I proved this by loading one chamber with a charge but just capping the others. I would find one cap burned for every two or three firings. When I switched back to #10 caps on this revolver the problem was cured.


http://www.jesseshunting.com/articles/guns/category16/63.html
 

gmatov

Moderator
GG,

I'll bet that doesn't settle the argument. Sounds good to me, but there's them who insist it's the other end.

Looking at the Colt ad that Mike or someone posted, where the Colt company explains loading the revolver and says place the ball on the chamber without wadding or patch, it's teaching single shot shooters, and mebbe shotgun shooters that, unlike a percussion rifle you dont patch the ball, or wad the shot in a smoothbore.

I've had that misunderstanding at gunstores when trying to buy 380 ball for my 36. 375s fall in. They say well, why don't you just use a patch? Clueless as to BP revolver shooting. Their TC or Lyman or whatever uses patches, hey, it's C&B, you'rs s'posed to patch the ball.

So, I would think, in 1850 whatever, with most people having a BP rifle, and patching their ball, the thought would be that you had to with the Colt too, and Colt was trying to edumacate the new shooters of his pistols.

As to a greased wad being mentioned, I've been reading a downloadable book, a good bit to do with the Whitworth Rifle, and they made a "cartridge" to hold the ball, a greased wad under it, to soften the fouling (several hundred shots fired without swabbing the barrell) and the powder below that. Pull a paper pull tab, stroke the ramrod, fully loaded.

2000 yard gun, hexagon bore, never fully adopted.

600 plus megs of downloadable out of print books in PDF format.

Howe, on modern gunsmithing, 1940s, WHB Smith, on the rifle, Askins on the shotgun, on and on. Anybody want to DL it, say so, I'll post the link. Right now, I'm reading "The Story of the Gun", printed 1864. Hatcher's Notebook is another on the site.

Lots of people say Elmer Keith bought felt hats to make greased wads. I have read lots of Keith, never read that in any of his books. Only reference to greased wad was one picture of a target, either 1 hole or damned near, that in the notes on the target mentions that that session he did use greased wads.

I wish SOMEBODY would find a reference, preferably 100 years old or more, that reccommends that you grease a wad for under the ball, or that you smear grease over it. I kinda doubt that an Injun fighter would take any more time to grease his chambers rather than start shootin' again as soon as he put powder, ball and caps in the gun.

Cheers,

George
 

gmatov

Moderator
Steve,

Here's the link to the downloadable books:

http://www.again.net/~steve/page7d.htm

Here's his Index page, you gotta dig a little to get to other places. This Steve has lots of likes, apparently lots of server space, he tells you his site is at 7.6 gigs and counting:

Never mind, at the bottom of the DLs, just hit "Front Page", takes you there.

13 books there, about 610 megs, zipped, about 630 unzipped, all PDF.

Have fun.

Cheers,

George

Edit: Steve, just read you post at the Pietta thread, that you want a Whitworth. Before I read about it, in the book (only 175 pages or so into it, on screen is different from on paper) I would not have believed it could be so much bette than the other rifles extant, not the GI junk, but the best that there was to be had.

The man was a genius, at least for his day and age. Were he here, today, with a modern education, and modern materials, what could he have accomplished?

Go for it. I almost want one. Not into rifle anymore, should sell allof mine. Won't but should.
 

Steve499

New member
Thanks, George. My infernal machine (computer) is being tempremental and won't let me look at anything on that link right now, don't ask me why! Which book was the Whitworth reference in?

Yes, I'm fascinated at the concept of a rifle from the muzzle loading era which can shoot a bullet with a workable ballistic coefficient. He got that 1 turn in 20 inches as the best by making a bazillion barrels and varying the rifling all the way from 1 turn in 1 inch on out to 1 turn in 70 inches or something like that! After shooting them all, 1 in 20 was best. Musta been some machinist, huh?

Steve
 

gmatov

Moderator
Steve,

If you are having trouble DLing them all, the one you want is "The Story of the Gun", by Tennent.

27 megs. If you cannot DL them, for whatever reason, let me know. I have them, and they will all fit 1 CD. I'll burn and send.

Actually, he didn't do trial and error. From 78 inch twist to 20 inch. He was noted as the best "mechanician" in England. He calculated it. And then, to prove he was right, he went as far as a 1 in 1 twist, AND, the ball flew true.

Cheers,

George
 

Steve499

New member
Whatever gremlin was keeping me from seeing that file has decamped. I have it downloaded now, hope to read it soon. Thanks for the help, George. When I get my Whitworth and post a few pictures of my 200 yard 1/2 inch groups with it ;) Maybe you'll need one too!

Steve
 

gmatov

Moderator
Steve,

I'm already thinking about one. And rifle no longer interests me all that much..

Cheers,

George
 

Gatofeo

New member
Re: Multiple Ignition

I have experienced multiple ignition or "chain fire" three times. It was long ago, in the 1970s, with a cheaply made Italian copy of the 1851 Navy in .44 caliber.
Yeah, I know, the Navy was never made in .44 caliber.
In those days, I followed the instructions of Lyman: Use FFFG black powder (as I recall, it was around 30 grains), a .451 ball and put Crisco over the ball when seated.
There was no mention of using greased felt wads from Lyman, nor of pinching caps into an oval so they'd cling to the nipple better.
In the second incident, a ball was fired into the rammer. In the third incident, a ball was again fired into the rammer, this time ruining it. I gave the gun to Bill Falk, whom my father knew from work (Bonneville Power Administration). Bill was quite the black powder enthusiast back in those days.
I picked up my next black powder revolver about 1983: a Colt 2nd generation 1851 Navy in the correct .36 caliber.
I used greased felt wads, per Elmer Keith's instructions. Also pinched the caps into an oval, so they clung to the nipple.
Funny thing: When you pinch the caps into an oval, then seat them on the nipple, they return to their typical round shape. There is NO gap twixt the nipple and cap, but the "memory" of the copper being oval gives them enough spring to clutch the nipple tightly.
For many years, I've disbelieved the claim that grease over the ball will prevent chain fires. Frankly, I just don't see how a tight ball can let flame past. It is agreed that "tight" is a relative term but let's assume that the ball is so tight that it is not loosened by recoil.
My Colt 1851 Navy reissue has rather large chambers. A .375 inch ball is nearly a slip fit in them. On occasion, years ago when I first started shooting it, I noticed balls moving forward under recoil.
So, I bought a .380 inch mould and started casting the larger ball.
Interestingly, the instructions Colt included with it specified using a .378 inch ball. A ball of .375 was not mentioned. Ever try finding .378 balls at your local gun store? I found a Lyman .380 mould and have used that with complete satisfaction.
I think it's rather telling that since those multiple iginitions with that one revolver, nearly 35 years ago, I have not had a recurrence --- in any cap and ball revolver.

Re: ball size
I use balls of .454 or .457 inch in my .44s and .380 in my .36 calibers. This makes a good, tight seal. The books almost always recommend .375 or .451 inch but I feel this is poor advice. A slightly larger ball will grip the chamber walls tighter, discouraging shift from recoil, and also provide a wider bearing band for the rifling to grip.

How I load
Loads are assembled with FFFG or FFG black powder (once in a while, with Pyrodex of Hodgdon 777), a greased wad made of 100 percent wool felt, and the wad lubricated with an old bullet lubricant recipe of 1 part canning paraffin, 1 part mutton tallow and 1/2 part beeswax (all parts by weight, not volume).
I seat the greased wad on the ball first, quite firm, then seat the ball firmly on the wad.
If a No. 11 cap is loose, I try a No. 10 cap. If the No. 10 cap bottoms out on the nipple, I pinch it into an oval shape. If it doesn't bottom out, I return to the No. 11 and pinch it into an oval.

Re: Lubricant
Years ago I tried firing without a lubricant. I noticed that the black powder fouling tended to cake and burn itself to the steel. It left a hard, caked-on fouling. With lubricant the black powder fouling is more easily wiped off.

Re: Lubricant use long ago
The earliest source I can find for the use of greased felt wads is Elmer Keith. However, he said he was taught how to properly load his original 1851 Navy Colt by Civil War veterans in the Helena, Montana area. This was about 1912. He started carrying that fine, old Navy when he was 13, as I recall.
In his book "Sixguns" Keith also notes that Colt offered combustible cartridges for all their revolvers. He speaks of the conical bullet attached to a tube of nitrated paper, containing the powder charge and --- this is the interesting part --- the bullet dipped in melted beeswax or tallow at the factory before being placed in those little boxes containing six cartridges.
I've never been able to view an original cartridge up close. However, all of those I've seen have bullets that are badly oxidized? Could this be because of the moistness of the lubricant, over time?
I have a box of Remington .32 Short Colt cartridges, which used an outside lubricated bullet, and every bullet is badly corroded.
Conversely, I have a couple of paper cartridges dating at least to the 1860s whose bullets are still free of oxidation. There is no stain on the paper to indicate the bullet was ever lubricated.
I tend to believe Keith when he says that the factory paper cartridges had a little lubricant on the bullet. I recall him writing somewhere that he fired some original cartridges once and they worked just fine. Keith was a keen observer, so I think he would have noted the absence of lubricant, especially since it was a common occurence in his day.

Using a vintage photograph to indicate the use of lubricant has its perils. By and large, conical bullets were used in paper cartridges during the Civil War. If there were any paper cartridges with a round ball, I'd strongly suspect they were homemade.
Also, I'm certain that the pistoleros of yore didn't slather in a lot of lubricant, as we do today. The factories probably used a very thin coat of lubricant on their bullets, which would not appear in a photo.
Sadly, it appears that no soldier or pistolero took the time years ago to write down the specifics of loading his revolver. At most, we may read, "I loaded my revolver and returned to the battle" or whatever.

I wish I could find the source but within the past few years I read of a Union officer who dripped melted beeswax over the revolver balls and caps, before going into battle. This was the memoir of a fellow soldier.
This turned out to be a wise precaution, as he and his troops were overwhelmed during a battle and had to swim a river to a small island, where they hid from Rebel troops until nightfall, when they could swim back across the river to their own lines.
Later, behind Union lines, the captain was curious how well the waterproofing worked. He reported to the chronicler that all chambers fired just fine, apparently with full strength.
Now, that beeswax over the balls was intended for waterproofing but it surely helped lubricate the projectile as well.

We know that from the early days of gunpowder, some kind of lubricant was used on balls and patches. I don't think it's a stretch to believe that when the revolver came along, people put some kind of lubricant over the seated ball too, if only for waterproofing.
Commonly available lubricants would have been spermwhale oil, various tallows, wagon axle grease, olive oil (usually known as "sweet oil"), bear fat, deer fat, candle wax and even plain ol' spit.

Colt may not have mentioned the use of any lubricant because Col. Colt was a terrific salesman. Had he mentioned lubricant, it would have meant one more step --- and potential buyers would have believed that his revolvers would not function without the aforementioned lubricant.
Contemporary testimonies about Colt revolvers speak of seating all balls and placing caps on the nipples --- without any lubricant whatsoever --- then soaking the revolver in a bucket of water for a few hours. After which, the revolver was pulled from the bucket and fired without failure.
This may be true, or it may be advertising license (read "damnable lie").

In my gut, I believe that if the pistolero had time, he used some kind of lubricant over the projectile. Or, in the case of factory loads, the projectile had a thin coat of beeswax or tallow over it.
Can I prove it? Nope.
Sadly, this mystery will almost certainly never be solved.
 

gmatov

Moderator
Cat,

Where in Keith's writings did you see reference to buying felt hats and lubing?

In "Sixguns" and in "Hell, I Was There", the only mention I saw was a target shot where the annotation was "greased wad", or "lubed wad". I will admit I may have missed it, but I have read them several times each.

It has been said that Colt did load pistols, slather loose powder over the chamber mouths, and fire without chain fires. likewise, he loaded, spilled powder around the nipples and caps, and fired all rounds without any chain fires, either.

Advertising license?

I have never read anywhere, until the craze hit the US that you should use any lube to seal chambers from chain fire. A ball that has a good ring of lead shaved when you ram it is NOT going to leave a channel for fire to touch off an adjacent chamber, Wayner's objection aside that he has shaved them a bunch and can still see light alongside.

I should qualify that by saying that the 500 balls I bought, cast, are so pi+s poor a piece that they are from .451 across the OD, to .471, if you put your caliper on the high and low of the parting. Haven't rammed any of those yet. if I get 2 partial rings, will either slather good or remelt them.

Cheers,

George
 

Gatofeo

New member
"Sixguns by Keith," published by Bonanza Books of New York.

Page 210, bottom of right column:
"Next, take an old felt hat, a thick heavy one .. an eighth inch thick ... and soak it in a mixture of melted tallow and beeswax. When cold and hard, take a slightly oversize wad cutter and cut wads."

Page. 211. Top of left column:
"Place a single, greased wad on top the powder, start the round ball down in the cylinder mouth ... ram it home so the powder is tightly compressed ...."

Yep, Sam Colt did dribble powder around the ball, and over the cap, then fire his revolvers. And he did it with complete success, to the amazement of those who witnessed. However, I don't recommend it as a regular practice.
John Browning, when demonstrating his 1911 .45 ACP before the Army, put 6,000 rounds through it in one sitting. The pistol would get so hot, it would turn a dull red. At that point, he'd plunge it into a bucket of water, then keep firing.
Again, I don't recommend this.

Colt made some claims for his revolvers that I've long suspected, especially regarding their accuracy. But then, it must be remembered that when he demonstrated his revolvers, he was undoubtedly using the best of the best of the best produced by his factory. Very likely, it was carefully fitted by master craftsmen who ensured it worked its absolute best.
Run of the mill revolvers, off the assembly line, were pretty good but I suspect not nearly as good as Sam Colt used for his demonstrations.
An eye-opening book on Sam Colt is, "The Flamboyant Mr. Colt and His Deadly Six-Shooter" by Bern Keating. My edition is Doubleday & Company, 1978, hardcover. I think it's a first edition.
Anwyay, it's all about Sam Colt: early years, family, experiences, marketing acumen, etc. Fascinating reading. Don't know if it's still in print. This is the only copy I've seen. Found it at a used book store.
Lots of interesting stuff in there ... Sam's brother, John Colt, was convicted of murdering a printer and scheduled to hang in 1842. Shortly before his hanging, he was found in his cell with a butcher knife in his chest. The coroner ruled it a suicide. Go figure.

I'm not sure when the "craze" hit the U.S., to place lubricant over the seated ball. I have every American Rifleman printed from December 1928 to last month's issue --- an unbroken set.
In there, whenever I've seen instructions for cap and ball revolvers, it was suggested to put grease over the ball. Keith is the first reference I can find for the use of felt wads.
Suggesting that grease be placed over the seated ball was suggested at least 70 years ago, judging from the old magazines I peruse.

I agree that a proper ball shouldn't let any flame past it, when seated. I've said that for years and years. I've never proposed using lubricant over the ball to prevent multiple ignitions. I believe that multiple ignitions begin at the rear, between the caps and nipples.
I've heard that some cheap reproductions have chambers that are not quite round. Rather oblong shaped, which allows a gap between the chamber wall and the ball. Never seen this myself but I"ve heard of it.
I don't know how this happens in the manufacturing process. I guess the chambering reamer chatters momentarily and moves sideways, making a slightly oblong hole.

Not long ago, I read that Colt's first revolvers had chambers that were straight-bored. Same diameter at the front, as at the rear. Then, by the 1851 Navy's introduction (or so I read) he made the chambers slightly tapered.
I don't know if this is true but it makes sense. With a tapered chamber, the ball would be held tighter, the deeper it was rammed.
I don't believe this was a major taper, just a very slight degree from front to back.
Can't recall where I read that. Might have been on a message board.
It would be interesting to measure some early chambers, then later ones, to see if this is true.

Ah well, it's late. Have to wield my vorpal blade and slay the Jabberwocky tomorrow, so I need to turn in!
 

gmatov

Moderator
Cat,

Thank you. I have read that book backwards and frontwards, totally escaped me that Keith was the one to suggest buying up old felt hats. I have reccommended it, could not find any at my Goodwill or Salvation Army stores, wound up buying a ladie's overcoat, solid wool, 10 bucks, about 5 yards of 1/8 inch thick wool. Hell, one big patch pocket made way over 200 wads, both 44 and 36,

I saturate my wool and cool before I punch them out. Saves trying to separate them from the glob when you dump little discs into the mix.

The Whitworth rifle, and the Whitworth cartridge, do use a greased wad under the ball. That is from 1855 or so. It is written that one General fired some 200 shots over a couple weeks and got no fouling from it. Nor rusting.

I posted the link to the DLs of the mid 1800's books and the early 1900's books, such as W.H.B. Smith's books and Askins and Hatcher, and the like. 600 megs, excellent reading, but a little harder on screen than on paper.

I've gotten to about halfway on Whitworth, then come to the Forums, and lose my place, have to go back a few pages. Should read in the AM when fewer are on line. OR, just ignore the Forii for a few hours.

Cheers,

George
 

Gewehr98

New member
Reading these threads is educational.

For my sons' 1858 Remingtons, one in .36 and one in .44, I've been buying them #11 caps. It appears that unless I replace those with #10 caps, they're risking a nipple-end chainfire? Is it the extra brisance of the #11 cap that's the culprit?

They each have several hundred WonderWads of the appropriate caliber, and well-lubed conicals, so I'm not too worried about the chainfire starting from that end. ;)
 
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