Did I over react?

invention_45

New member
But my guess is that it will, unlike defending against someone breaking into your home, involve some expensive legal assistance.

Notice that I know when I'm guessing and say so. Meaning you might lose legally.

Fact is, the legislature wrote the statutes so that you can construct a legal way to shoot a trespasser.

Another fact, however, is that stringing together numerous laws to justify what you did will be expensive. And the jury may not necessarily see things your way.

So, even though it might be, no, IS, technically legal to shoot a trespasser, you could still end up at worst in prison and at best bankrupt.

It really is best, comparing the cost of a new car or repairing the trespasser's damage to that of an armed confrontation, to stay inside and dial 911.

Said another way, if I were on your jury, it would be hung, because I see you being in the right to protect your property, as long as you don't simply shoot first and ask questions later. This fact may not be of any help to you, though, since you might be retried, convicted, and in bigger hock than if I hadn't hung the first jury to boot.
 

bobhwry

Moderator
Good common sense will trump all the legal opinions everytime!! If we listened to all the lawyers most of the advances in the last 100 years would not have happened!! You should only use lethal force when you or your family is threatened. If you catch someone running out of your house with your TV set I suggest you not shoot him in the back.However if he theatens you with bodily harm, fire away and worry about the legal implications later. Don't empty the 14 round mag on him but only enough to stop the threat.
If I have to pay legal fees to a lawyer to defend myself against some liberal DA on a crusade to further his career so be it! Still better than you or a loved one being killed!!
I live in rural Texas and if I ever find myself in a life or death situation I will put my faith in my own common sense and a jury of my peers over all the legal advice. It's called not being a victim!!
 

marlboroman84

New member
JFREY123, instead of listening to a bunch of armchair lawyers, rambos,mall ninjas,etc,etc do yourself this favor.... Read the laws IN YOUR STATE. Consult an attorney, ask LEOs. The fact of it all is in most states now legislation has been passed that allows the right to defend one's self extends to home,car,and business. In Mississippi that is the case, in Florida that is the case, I believe in Alaska as well. Where's Wildalaska when I need him? I can say with legal assurance from lawyers, an asst. DA, LEOs,and my firearms instructor for my CCL that if my car alarm went off at 3:00 am and I grabbed my pistol and flashlight and went to investigate, if I should discover a person breaking into my vehicle and order them to stop, then they turn and run at me with an object in their hand and I put 2 in their chest. It's justifiable homicide. I.E SELF DEFENSE!! Every state is different, but you can read the laws for yourself. If mbrevolver and blklabman don't wanna go out and see what's up with their car fine for them, but listening to advice on the internet (including mine) can go either way. It may cost you your money, your time, your sanity, or most of all your life. Let everyone else say what they want, but you decide what to do when the time comes. As for me if someone is breaking into my car and they turn on me with a screwdriver they are getting a few rounds out a 9mm for their stupidity and arrogance. Would I shoot them over my car? Nope. Would I shoot them if they turn on me when I order them away from MY property that I worked hard to purchase? OH YOU BEST BELIEVE! That's my two pennies.
 

skeeter1

New member
List of states with "castle doctrine"

U.S. States with Castle Doctrine Laws in Effect
Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Colorado
Florida (adopted March of 2005)
Georgia
Indiana
Kentucky
Michigan (Signed By Governor Granholm July 20th 2006)
Mississippi
Nebraska
New Hampshire
North Dakota
Oklahoma (passed in House)
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas (Possibly being introduced 2007 January by Texas Senator Wentworth. The current Texas Law, note §9.42(3).)
Washington
 

CDH

New member
I'd like to see some actual case law cited by the lawyers here that would directly support their claims that self defense used while investigating personal property has actually ended up in a CONVICTION.

These cases aren't decided by lawyers, nor judges, nor even the "written" law.
They are decided by juries made up of real people who are just as tired of being victimized by crime as anyone.

With the limited facts as described here, and IF the situation had ended up with a KNOWN bad guy ending up dead while in the commission of a crime, and at the hands of the property owner, there is no way in the world I (as a juror) would hand down a conviction.
Lawyers may think they're powerful, but it's the juror who makes the decision.
So again, I'd like to see some real case law.

Furthermore, if the BG's mother or whatever brought a civil suit, and the same evidence were presented, I'd have to try very hard to keep myself from showing disdain toward the "survivors" during the entire trial.

Carter
 

invention_45

New member
The fact of it all is in most states now legislation has been passed that allows the right to defend one's self extends to home,car,and business. In Mississippi that is the case, in Florida that is the case,

In Florida your right to defend YOURSELF extends to your car. It extends, in fact, to any place you have a legal right to be.

But there is no direct right to defend your CAR.
 

invention_45

New member
Florida (adopted March of 2005)

The laws changed around October 2005.

Florida has had "castle doctrine" for a long time. It was just extended to your business, car, and "anyplace you have a legal right to be", which I suppose means anyplace you are not trespassing or committing some other crime.

Previously, except for your home, you had the duty to retreat. According to statute, that's gone.

According to jury, it might not be so gone.

Best thing to do is to:

1 - Ask an attorney versed in these matters;
2 - Ask a few cops;
3 - Read the statutes in your state;
4 - Read a little case law if you can find it;
5 - Use your good sense and don't shoot anyone you don't have to.
 

JoshB

New member
Had you found someone there and used that handgun, you'd have been in deep crap. That's why you have insurance on the car, right?

Why couldn't you hold the guy at gunpoint and perform a "citezen's arrest?"

I already carry a 1911, extra mags, & a backup firearm (just in case). I've also considered carrying a set or two of cuffs. If the perp ended up dropping his weapon, it makes a little more sense to have a bystander cuff him rather than holding him at gunpoint untill the police arrive.
 

marlboroman84

New member
Quote:
The fact of it all is in most states now legislation has been passed that allows the right to defend one's self extends to home,car,and business. In Mississippi that is the case, in Florida that is the case,

In Florida your right to defend YOURSELF extends to your car. It extends, in fact, to any place you have a legal right to be.

But there is no direct right to defend your CAR.

Ok the above quote is mine the next is invention's. Isn't that what I said?? You have a right to defend ONE'S SELF extends to car and business. One's self and yourself are the same thing. I never said cap his butt because he screwed with your Honda.

And Josh you might wanna check with a cop definitely before cuffing someone. That could definitely be construed as "holding a person against their will". Citizen's arrests are 70/30 at best with 30% probably being ok'ed by the police and DA. Unless you're a security guard or cop I wouldn't handcuff anyone unless they were in your house and you were nice enough not to kill them.
 

ATW525

New member
Why couldn't you hold the guy at gunpoint and perform a "citezen's arrest?"

How do you hold somebody at gun point? What if they don't want to be held? Are you going to shoot them if they try and walk away? What if they just ignore you and keep trying to steal your car?

I already carry a 1911, extra mags, & a backup firearm (just in case). I've also considered carrying a set or two of cuffs. If the perp ended up dropping his weapon, it makes a little more sense to have a bystander cuff him rather than holding him at gunpoint untill the police arrive.

Don't forget, you're not fully prepared unless you have the "special boots to climb walls", too.
 
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invention_45

New member
The whole story (not much more than this) can be found at:http://www.local10.com/news/10032499/detail.html


Welker, 26, heard a car pull into his driveway early Saturday, police said. When he went outside, two men threatened him with a gun and demanded keys to his truck.

The basic first move here by Welker (not that it was the smart move) was to go outside. Looks like his purpose was to deal with, or remove, trespassers, which he has a legal right to do. Their threatening with a gun immediately authorized him by law to use lethal force to defend himself, although this took place in a fairly twisted way.

But what it boils down to is that once again the homicide and self-defense laws in Florida have permitted construction of legal means to protect property with lethal force, even though Florida law does not explicitly state that you may do so in a single sentence.

I don't even see anywhere in the story that says he dialed 911 at all. But then you know how news stories are.

Now, perhaps Welker was unwise to step outside unarmed, and then to fight armed trespassers. But he's "unlikely" to be charged for two reasons. One, a case can be constructed from laws on the books (and the prosecutor knows it) to allow what he did. Two, not even a South Florida jury would convict him on what appears in the story.

My feeling is that what the legislature is trying to convey is that you can indeed defend property using deadly force, but circumstances need to lead up to it.

I suspect it goes like this.

You cannot ever shoot, from your window, someone stealing your kid's bike from your yard.

You cannot practically shoot the same guy even it you start by running outside and yelling because he'll just pick up the bike and flee, then you'll be guilty of shooting someone fleeing. No good.

You cannot shoot somebody trying to steal your jeep tires through the window.

You can, however, go outside with gun in pocket and demand he leave your property. If he leaves, you have defended property without using any force. If he disputes his right to be there, you can threaten or kick him, since you have the right to use force to remove a trespasser. If he stubbornly raises the tire iron to you, you can then shoot him.

But you have to be able to show that this is the sequence of events when the police arrive in order to qualify for the "cannot be arrested" part of the new laws. Otherwise, you'll have to pay your lawyer to assemble the necessary laws and argue the points for you. You have a chance at winning, but not financially, unless there's clear evidence it went the way you say, like maybe you have video surveillance or a neighbor saw it from across the street, in which case the DA will see a losing proposition in charging you.

It's this last paragraph that makes it worth considering dialing 911 and staying inside, or at least to carefully think through what you are about to do.
 
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