Determining Max Loads

Yosemite Steve

New member
When your gun starts to heat up does it begin to drip grease? This is very unorthodox... to me... but it's interesting! When people think outside the box great things can happen so I really admire that you have done this. I would bet that you have received a lot of criticism for it. If the proof is in the pudding, that is what counts. Thanks for sharing all of this!
 

Pathfinder45

New member
Slamfire, you've gone way beyond some of my experiments. Thanks for the R&D. Have you done any of this involving 30-30 in a lever-gun?
 

Slamfire

New member
When your gun starts to heat up does it begin to drip grease? This is very unorthodox... to me... but it's interesting! When people think outside the box great things can happen so I really admire that you have done this. I would bet that you have received a lot of criticism for it. If the proof is in the pudding, that is what counts. Thanks for sharing all of this!

I don’t want to get it that hot! I used to rapid fire 8mm surplus out of a Mauser 98K. I burnt that stuff up, stripper clip loading the rifle, till the rifle got objectionably hot. Once the thing was hot enough, I would pull the bolt out, point the muzzle at the ground, and pour water down the barrel! The barrel was hot enough to boil water, into steam, blowing out of the action like a geyser, getting all over me. But, pour long enough, and the barrel cooled. However, you get a firearm that hot, one little touch on the rear sight, with was as hot as the barrel, and I would get a burn.

I recommend keeping your rifles cool. And dry. It was always a mess tearing the rifle down to wipe off water.

Now, I have not invented anything, instead I am recovering history. What I am doing was very common in the US prior to the 1921 Tin Can ammunition cover up, after which, the Army banned the use of greased bullets in NRA matches. The Army issued ammunition which the bullets had a thick coat of tin. Townsend Whelen developed the coating and claimed it prevented fouling. It did not. Not only that, the tin cold soldered to the case necks of the cartridges and positively created a bore obstruction and blew up rifles before the National Matches, during the National Matches, and after the National Matches. Instead of acknowledging that the Army had made and issued dangerous ammunition, the Army lied, claiming the ammunition was absolutely safe, and blamed the shooters:

Courtesy Google Books:

1 Oct 1921 Arms and the Man, Editorial by Brig-Gen Fred H. Phillips, Jr, Secretary NRA

The National Match Ammunition

Use of the national Match ammunition through the Camp Perry shooting season has amply demonstrated that, in the hands of intelligent rifleman, the “tin can” cartridge may be regarded as absolutely safe.
The fact that the National Matches closed without recording one serious accident in connection with the use of this ammunition seems to be a final and clinching argument, that when properly handled, no disastrous results may be expect. The only instance of rifles having been damaged-there were two out of the thousand-odd in use that suffered from “blow back”-were cause the presence of grease in excessive quantity and were the result of the shooter’s own carelessness. Fortunately the men who experience the blow backs were only superficially hurt. The lesion, however, in connection with the blow backs was plain.

The high degree of accuracy attained in the manufacture of this ammunition cannot be question. It is without a doubt the finest machine-made product that has ever been turned out.

The high quality of this ammunition, together with the remarkable accuracy properties of the new type of National Match rifle will do a very great deal toward promoting the art of marksmanship. …..

Whether the new “tin can” type ammunition may be regarded as a suitable service load for use by troops in the field is a matter for later an more mature determination. But little more could be expected in accuracy and wind bucking qualities from a strictly machine-made product than that exhibited by this year’s tin-plated ball cartridges.


If you have ever read Hatcher’s Notebook, he never mentioned this lie,did he?

The use of greased bullets was still very common outside of the US, as evidenced in this article:

Chronicle Newspaper, 13 Feb 1930 Adelaide Australia

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/90100747

Rifle Shooting

GREASED BULLETS

Opinion is so divided on the question of the benefits of using greased, bullets that riflemen would be well advised to give the practice a thorough try-out to ascertain if their present method of shooting is giving the best results. This advice applies to those using a lot of lubricant, those using a little, and those who do not use any. There are prominent riflemen who pile the lubricant on the bullet and get good scores; there are others who have been equally as free with the grease and have got very bad scores; and naturally the two parties hold very different opinions on the subject. The greasing of bullets was introduced in an attempt to prevent the nickel of the bullet adhering to the surface of the inside of the barrel when firing was being carried out. The theory that a lubricant would prevent the two metals “sticking” appears quite in order, but this prevention had to be carried out without any loss of the rifle's accuracy. It was here that the trouble occurred as it was found that as soon as the heat of the barrel turned the grease to oil, which worked into the chamber of the barrel, the bullets began to fly high, as is the case when water gets into the chamber. * The riflemen who had scores spoilt in this manner immediately discarded the use of the lubricant, preferring to chance the nickel trouble as the lesser of the two evils. But, seeing that other men used lets of grease and continued to get good scores, the question arose as to whether the state of the rifling of the barrel should not be taken into consideration with the grease question. Men with new Enfield barrels which have sharp lands, bandied the greased bullets better than those with Metford barrels, which have shallow round lands. This implies that worn barrels do not handle greased bullets as well as the new. One good shot recently was having a run of poor scores. His rifle picked up nickel, so he always used greased bullets. He decided to discontinue the use of the grease, and his scores immediately improved several points. Two other big shots had the same experience. It is possible that had they experimented with reduced amounts of lubricant they might have discovered that they could use a certain amount and get good scores, and at the same time keep the nickel down. There can be little doubt that less lubricant could be used with advantage in the summer, owing to it melting more quickly than in the winter. Rifle men should not only experiment with the quantity to be used but also with the kind, there being several different brands in use.

* note: the Lee Enfield action is very flexible and changes in breech friction create a point of impact change)

And then, there is this:
IYKqBZA.jpg


This history has been forgotten by the shooting community, and it was deliberate, in my opinion.
 

Slamfire

New member
Slamfire, you've gone way beyond some of my experiments. Thanks for the R&D. Have you done any of this involving 30-30 in a lever-gun?

Yes I have, and as usual, posted pictures! Which are in these threads, along with the rationale of why I fire form new 30-30 cases with a grease coating on the outside.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6506954&postcount=9

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6528749&postcount=15

I do want to point out, the excessive amounts of grease you see in many of my pictures is there so the camera can see the grease. You only need as much grease on the case as you would have on the case when you size it on your press. Some of the 30-30 pictures, you can’t see the grease layer, but it is there. I just dappled grease on the case, rolled the case around, spread it out from bullet to base. The guy I learned this from, he was a M1a shooter and he never tumbled his fired cases. He picked them up after each relay, took them home, rolled them around in a towel saturated with RCBS water soluble, sized the cases, primed them, dumped powder and seated the bullets, without removing the case lubricant. I handled his fired cases and they felt slightly greasy. That was enough to break the friction between case and chamber.

A Bullseye bud of mine, in Vietnam he and his band of US Army pirates stole an Oerlikon 20mm machine cannon from the Air Force. Which they bolted to the deck of their armored barge. This machine cannon used pre greased ammunition in WW2, Korea. You can see at exactly 2:14 on this WW2 video a Sailor’s hand painting grease on the 20 mm ammunition loading machine for the Oerlikon anti aircraft machine guns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=9dR3h2HdnBQ

elX1w4E.jpg


Well this was messy and you had to pre grease the ammunition, so some time in the 1950’s an oiler was added on the top of the Oerlikon. My Bud said “it did not put much oil on the round”. He and his river pirate buds really appreciated the Oerlikon. He told me of coming around the bend and taking rifle fire from the tree line. Well that's the exact situation why they liberated that Oerlikon from the USAF, they returned fire, 20 mm cannon shells at 700 rounds per minute. Bud claimed, shrubbery, branches, trees would explode and fall, and then the woods got awfully quite afterwards.

If he had one of these, I am certain he would have used it:

kAIc0cv.jpg
 
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