Frank Ettin
Administrator
Various things can see those devices off. I had an electronic card key for the building my office was in, an that used to set the alarm off.
Detained by merchant?
- Thread starter Spats McGee
- Start date
m&p45acp10+1
New member
I just keep the recipt in my off hand. Sometimes the demagnitizer does not get the full charge off of the anti theft device inside of the merchandise. Also sometimes the clerk fails to deactivate the device as well.
It is a little piece of white plastic in the packaging.
At the local Walmart I have had that thing go off many times. The door greeter looks at the recipt I hand them, and then turns the anoying racket maker off.
It is a little piece of white plastic in the packaging.
At the local Walmart I have had that thing go off many times. The door greeter looks at the recipt I hand them, and then turns the anoying racket maker off.
Corrections Cop
New member
I think their is some over analyzing here. When the thing goes off which it does sometime, just show them the receipt. Why would they "detain" if you have a receipt. Every time I have been in this situation I show them the receipt, they look in the bag and your on your way. But if they did in fact go the extra mile and ask me to empty my pockets, I would politely tell them that I am legally carrying, and if they push the issue we could go someplace out of view of the public and take care of the matter and I would want to see a manager. But odds are it would never reach that point.
Your worst case scenario is not going to be a manager or security personnel from a large store, but a small business owner who has been hit hard by shoplifting. Showing a receipt might not help that much because he may believe that in addition to the purchases on your receipt that you have hidden some of his merchandise on your person. Being well dressed, articulate, and the appearance of affluence might not help either because as I am certain you are aware sometimes people shoplift items they could easily afford to buy. Add to that you are likely to be dealing with an angry person who feels wronged and has little understanding of the legal limits of his position, a situation ripe for going south quickly.
You don't won't him to touch you or search you, and you don't want to mention that you have a gun. If you can you want to call law enforcement and explain very calmly that you're not going anywhere, and he'll have every opportunity to explain his case to the law enforcement officers with all of the evidence he believes present intact. He will probably be satisfied with your agreement to wait for law enforcement officers to show up. If he isn't satisfied, then you have to decide whether to trust your well being to his sense of proportion. He could very well believe that his suspicion of your guilt justifies a physical assault. Any action you take to defend yourself is very subject to misinterpretation. Even eye witnesses may not help you that much. In order to preserve the physical sanctity of your person, you may find yourself holding the store owner at gun point as you wait for law enforcement personnel to arrive. I don't think I have to tell a practicing attorney what an uphill fight to win the war of perceptions that will be in the eyes of the arriving officers or possibly a jury at some future date.
That's life. Sometimes we round the next corner and find ourselves faced with an extraordinarily complex situation that we have to resolve in seconds that has no good solution and will hang over us for the rest of our lives.
You don't won't him to touch you or search you, and you don't want to mention that you have a gun. If you can you want to call law enforcement and explain very calmly that you're not going anywhere, and he'll have every opportunity to explain his case to the law enforcement officers with all of the evidence he believes present intact. He will probably be satisfied with your agreement to wait for law enforcement officers to show up. If he isn't satisfied, then you have to decide whether to trust your well being to his sense of proportion. He could very well believe that his suspicion of your guilt justifies a physical assault. Any action you take to defend yourself is very subject to misinterpretation. Even eye witnesses may not help you that much. In order to preserve the physical sanctity of your person, you may find yourself holding the store owner at gun point as you wait for law enforcement personnel to arrive. I don't think I have to tell a practicing attorney what an uphill fight to win the war of perceptions that will be in the eyes of the arriving officers or possibly a jury at some future date.
That's life. Sometimes we round the next corner and find ourselves faced with an extraordinarily complex situation that we have to resolve in seconds that has no good solution and will hang over us for the rest of our lives.
Fishing_Cabin
New member
the exit scanners do make mistakes at times. Here, I know of several LEO that work part time as loss prevention, or either full time loss prevention and part time LEO.
Basically be polite, show the receipt if asked (always make sure you have one) and if its anything more its a choice to ask for law enforcement if you or the store rep decide so. Keep in mind many chains have cameras all around and there may be a loss prevention person videoing you the entire time if they pick up on something unique to cause them to watch you.
To me carrying ccw in this circumstance isn't an issue, as if it were posted at entry a person could turn around and not enter.
To be honest. While I appreciate your view on law enforcement have some base level of training, I am constantly reminded ad nauseam about how everyone and anyone in the general population except law enforcement is trained to handle firearms. My opinion would be to wait until LE arrive and then hand it over if asked.
As to your 4th point. Its doubtful the store will try to restrain you physically due to liability. They may ask you to wait for the police and its your call. If you don't they can follow you out write down a tag number etc. If you do stay, just have basic chit chat "im tired of all this rain we are having" etc... No need to muddy the waters so to speak.
Basically be polite, show the receipt if asked (always make sure you have one) and if its anything more its a choice to ask for law enforcement if you or the store rep decide so. Keep in mind many chains have cameras all around and there may be a loss prevention person videoing you the entire time if they pick up on something unique to cause them to watch you.
To me carrying ccw in this circumstance isn't an issue, as if it were posted at entry a person could turn around and not enter.
Spats said:
To be honest. While I appreciate your view on law enforcement have some base level of training, I am constantly reminded ad nauseam about how everyone and anyone in the general population except law enforcement is trained to handle firearms. My opinion would be to wait until LE arrive and then hand it over if asked.
As to your 4th point. Its doubtful the store will try to restrain you physically due to liability. They may ask you to wait for the police and its your call. If you don't they can follow you out write down a tag number etc. If you do stay, just have basic chit chat "im tired of all this rain we are having" etc... No need to muddy the waters so to speak.
ChaperallCat
Moderator
store employees cannot search you. all they can do is ask you not to leave. Some stores allow their security to chase you down, but not many have that policy.
I believe its a federal law or statute that only law enforcement can touch someone. Its considered part of their duty. and the TSA people can poke you hard as they like.
Some store employee comes up and starts feeling your pockets, well they committed sexual assault, as well as battery if you say 'ow'.
Statute says you only have to surrender the chl to an actual LEO. Now plain clothes cops are one thing, but not off duty. They can hope on a cell phone and get UNIFORMED personel over. Wouldnt want to just give that loaded handgun to a crazy person with a badge from the box of cracker jacks they had in 3rd grade now would we?
Thats the other thing, its against the law to provide a gun to a convicted felon, or to anyone guilty of a bunch of crimes that vary from state to state. How would you like to be charged for giving that nice 357 snubby to someone who got off a 5 year felony stint for armed robbery?
I believe its a federal law or statute that only law enforcement can touch someone. Its considered part of their duty. and the TSA people can poke you hard as they like.
Some store employee comes up and starts feeling your pockets, well they committed sexual assault, as well as battery if you say 'ow'.
Statute says you only have to surrender the chl to an actual LEO. Now plain clothes cops are one thing, but not off duty. They can hope on a cell phone and get UNIFORMED personel over. Wouldnt want to just give that loaded handgun to a crazy person with a badge from the box of cracker jacks they had in 3rd grade now would we?
Thats the other thing, its against the law to provide a gun to a convicted felon, or to anyone guilty of a bunch of crimes that vary from state to state. How would you like to be charged for giving that nice 357 snubby to someone who got off a 5 year felony stint for armed robbery?
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interesting, I've thought this same question its reasonable to think about and have wondered what authority do non LE personnel (security, employees, etc. ) have.
My take, I would comply with the detainment only reasonably for LE to arrive, in fact I'd be calling them myself. I'd show them the receipt, let them search the bags. I would not tell them I was carrying, or empty my pockets or consent to a search of my person.
The question I have now is what to do if they physically tried to search you? What is the best approach for handling a forceful search, especially if your carrying?
My take, I would comply with the detainment only reasonably for LE to arrive, in fact I'd be calling them myself. I'd show them the receipt, let them search the bags. I would not tell them I was carrying, or empty my pockets or consent to a search of my person.
The question I have now is what to do if they physically tried to search you? What is the best approach for handling a forceful search, especially if your carrying?
leprechaun50
New member
Even if I wasn't carrying no one that is not an LEO will be allowed to search me. I would call the LEO's myself and if they tried to prevent that things would go down hill from there, without my firearm being directly involved. It would also make for an interesting lawsuit.
Jammer Six
New member
Assuming all the givens-- a legitimate purchase, a suspicion without grounds, a weapon doesn't enter into it.
If I've made a legitimate purchase, I can talk my way home, with or without a weapon.
The weapon and the search would always be irrelevant, given those conditions.
Going in with limits that only you see or trying to enforce your views on the world is setting yourself up for a shooting that didn't need to happen and a prison sentence you might not deserve.
If I've made a legitimate purchase, I can talk my way home, with or without a weapon.
The weapon and the search would always be irrelevant, given those conditions.
Going in with limits that only you see or trying to enforce your views on the world is setting yourself up for a shooting that didn't need to happen and a prison sentence you might not deserve.
johnelmore
New member
You need not worry. The security people at the store go through this on a daily basis. This may be your first time but for them they go through this all the time.
So if you are stopped by security at a store they will have good reason and they will know how to handle the situation.
So if you are stopped by security at a store they will have good reason and they will know how to handle the situation.
I have a great story for this thread. So I was about 18 or 19 can't remember. But I went to the local Kmart looked around for a few minutes. Found something I wanted picked it up went a few feet decided I didn't need it after all put it back. Started to walk out the door when the Kmart security guard grabbed ahold of my leather jacket from behind at which time I spun around grabbed him by the throat and slammed him into the wall where he crumpled. When he got up he informed me that I was going to be arrested for theft and assault. I informed him that he had in fact battered me first and if someone were going to jail it would be him. He called the sheriff's department while I set there and waited. When the deputy arrived he asks what happened and I told him. I also consented to a pat search by the Deputy of course I had nothing so he went and pulled the video came back after watching it and ask me in front of the store security if I would like to press Battery charges. I declined but ask the Deputy to please inform said security guard that he was not a police office and has no right to touch anyone. I heard he got fired over it but I did not pursue it. The funny part is I had been a police explorer and knew the Deputy that responded so everything turned out ok. Still the point is don’t expect Security guards to know the law. Be polite but if there is a problem demand they call the police. I would under no circumstance ever let one of them disarm me.
leprechaun50
New member
Don't bet on it.
The overriding factor is liability.
The use of force in detention, or simply detention that's not justified, can be grounds for a lawsuit against the representative, the merchant, or the parent company. This is why many merchants don't even attempt to detain suspected shoplifters.
Even factors outside their direct control can be grounds for litigation. If they decide to give chase, and I run and get hit by a car in the parking lot, are they liable in my state? Possibly. Then there's the issue of employees getting hurt if I resist.
This is the really galling thing about shoplifting: it's very hard to prosecute. If a suspected thief simply decides not to cooperate, the merchant has few viable options in practice.
That certainly doesn't help. The argument can be made that if person A is ignored or allowed to leave without issue when he sets off the detection device, then they really can't stop person B.
As far as being searched or disarmed, I would only give consent to law enforcement. If the merchant wants to detain me and call them, I'll wait. There's no way I'm allowing someone I don't know to handle a firearm of mine, much less one that's loaded.
The use of force in detention, or simply detention that's not justified, can be grounds for a lawsuit against the representative, the merchant, or the parent company. This is why many merchants don't even attempt to detain suspected shoplifters.
Even factors outside their direct control can be grounds for litigation. If they decide to give chase, and I run and get hit by a car in the parking lot, are they liable in my state? Possibly. Then there's the issue of employees getting hurt if I resist.
This is the really galling thing about shoplifting: it's very hard to prosecute. If a suspected thief simply decides not to cooperate, the merchant has few viable options in practice.
That certainly doesn't help. The argument can be made that if person A is ignored or allowed to leave without issue when he sets off the detection device, then they really can't stop person B.
As far as being searched or disarmed, I would only give consent to law enforcement. If the merchant wants to detain me and call them, I'll wait. There's no way I'm allowing someone I don't know to handle a firearm of mine, much less one that's loaded.
johnelmore
New member
I am not sure of the applicable laws in all areas, but I do know in some areas they can only detain you if they observe you shoplifting. In any event, no one is going to detain you unless they have hard evidence like a video of you shoplifting otherwise there is risk and liability for all involved.
Rest assured you will not be detained unless there is very good reason supported by direct observation and hard evidence.
Rest assured you will not be detained unless there is very good reason supported by direct observation and hard evidence.
I have know store security and seen a few “capture” suspected shoplifters, I know one of their common tactics is to get suspected shoplifters into a backroom where they are out of sight and off camera. They usually use “can you come with us” or basic wording to make it seem legally voluntary.
You do not legally need to go with them. You can tell them “No.. I will wait right here”
I knew one guy (I never liked) that used to work nights at a store he would seek people out that looked like they had drugs and would be submissive, he would then follow them into the parking lot with 1-2 other store goons tell them they were suspected of stealing, empty pockets and they could “forget about the drugs as a favor”. He is a cop now.
I knew one woman that was strip searched(all legally voluntary of course) only to find the detector tag stuck on the bottom of her shoe.
Most store security make little more then min wage, work poor hours and have basically no valuable skills. It was usually the security job or McDonalds. I wait for the day the mess with me.. I would love a good lawsuit.
You do not legally need to go with them. You can tell them “No.. I will wait right here”
I knew one guy (I never liked) that used to work nights at a store he would seek people out that looked like they had drugs and would be submissive, he would then follow them into the parking lot with 1-2 other store goons tell them they were suspected of stealing, empty pockets and they could “forget about the drugs as a favor”. He is a cop now.
I knew one woman that was strip searched(all legally voluntary of course) only to find the detector tag stuck on the bottom of her shoe.
Most store security make little more then min wage, work poor hours and have basically no valuable skills. It was usually the security job or McDonalds. I wait for the day the mess with me.. I would love a good lawsuit.
Spats McGee
Administrator
Many lawyers would also agree that while we might enjoy a good courtroom scuffle, our clients rarely do. The clients enjoy the settlement check (even though it's never as large as they hope), but they rarely enjoy the litigation leading up to it.
Jammer Six
New member
The premises of this thread are a citizen carrying a legal weapon legally concealed, falsely accused of shoplifting following a legitimate purchase, stopped (by force or without force) by security and asked for his/her weapon, or searched, again, with or without force.
I don't believe for a second that that happens on a daily basis.
If it does, the security in that store needs to get a grip.
