Defund the Police?
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And is the hospital inside the CHAZ zone? Or does one have to "leave the country" to get medical care beyond basic first aid??
The leaders, and members of the movement have declared the (other people's) property they now hold is an independent (autonomous) "nation" no longer part of the US.
One of the issues with that is, that if you take over and replace the government, you have to replace the government. They become responsible for the basic social services provided by the "former" govt. Health care, firefighting, policing, etc.
Are they not still getting power and water/sewer from outside the CHAZ??
Right now, I think "Spineless in Seattle" sums up the city's govt pretty well.
I'm waiting for the Seattle mayor to wave a copy of the Seattle P-I, with a banner headline reading "Peace in our time!"....
What's next? are they going to apply for foreign aid to help out their "impoverished nation"?? hmmm, probably not, I think you need to be recognized by the Fed (not the mayor) before you can do that...
SO, "defund the police" and take over a area, "kicking" the bad cops out (who left under orders to do so...) NOW WHAT??
The leaders, and members of the movement have declared the (other people's) property they now hold is an independent (autonomous) "nation" no longer part of the US.
One of the issues with that is, that if you take over and replace the government, you have to replace the government. They become responsible for the basic social services provided by the "former" govt. Health care, firefighting, policing, etc.
Are they not still getting power and water/sewer from outside the CHAZ??
Right now, I think "Spineless in Seattle" sums up the city's govt pretty well.
I'm waiting for the Seattle mayor to wave a copy of the Seattle P-I, with a banner headline reading "Peace in our time!"....
What's next? are they going to apply for foreign aid to help out their "impoverished nation"?? hmmm, probably not, I think you need to be recognized by the Fed (not the mayor) before you can do that...
SO, "defund the police" and take over a area, "kicking" the bad cops out (who left under orders to do so...) NOW WHAT??
silvermane_1
New member
^Exactly.
Without needed to shout, I feel the same way about it that I did when the idea was proposd, and now that it has been done in certain places (and, done badly to boot) I haven't changed my mind.
It is as morally bankrupt an idea as gun control, and uses the same basic method, punishing the entirety of the INNOCENT for the evil acts of of a few guilty people.
Seattle has removed a significant amount of money from their police budget. And while I think that is a barking stupid idea, one thing they did I do approve of. They have reduced the salaries of certain top police officials.
Now I will admit my working class background leads me to feel that all administrators get paid more than they are worth, in this case the performance of those administrators, reflected by the performance of the street officers seems to justify "punishment" by reducing their pay.
It is as morally bankrupt an idea as gun control, and uses the same basic method, punishing the entirety of the INNOCENT for the evil acts of of a few guilty people.
Seattle has removed a significant amount of money from their police budget. And while I think that is a barking stupid idea, one thing they did I do approve of. They have reduced the salaries of certain top police officials.
Now I will admit my working class background leads me to feel that all administrators get paid more than they are worth, in this case the performance of those administrators, reflected by the performance of the street officers seems to justify "punishment" by reducing their pay.
I don’t remember if the Chaz/chop zone had been dismantled yet since this thread was last active. But it was truly ironic how it took about two weeks at the most for those who participated in the chop zone to become everything they were protesting against . It only took two weeks for them to put up walls and barriers to give themselves borders they then instituted their own security force which was corrupt and physically abusive . Then as expected came the muders just like the other areas with a low police presents around the nation .
I do wish the media covered all of that more honestly than they did because that is what this nation could turn into in a heartbeat if we don’t tread very carefully . For them to keep saying the protests are mostly peaceful it’s like saying ( forgot who said it ) OJ Was mostly peaceful that night .
Then in Portland on Sunday that guy was savagely beaten with no security or police around to help him . We can’t have to many more of those types of incidents or the citizenry will start policing for themselves and that never leads to a good outcome in these types of situations .
I do wish the media covered all of that more honestly than they did because that is what this nation could turn into in a heartbeat if we don’t tread very carefully . For them to keep saying the protests are mostly peaceful it’s like saying ( forgot who said it ) OJ Was mostly peaceful that night .
Then in Portland on Sunday that guy was savagely beaten with no security or police around to help him . We can’t have to many more of those types of incidents or the citizenry will start policing for themselves and that never leads to a good outcome in these types of situations .
PocketCamera
Moderator
Far to much cherry picking going on here. you have far to much political cherry picking happening here. its really sad.
If one social/racial group is 5 times more likely to be involved in armed crime, or drugs, or crime in general. then one would expect that group to be killed more.
look at the chicago stats for the last year in violent crime. 80% of all people killed by violent crime are gasp,,,,, wanna be gangsters killed over drugs and turf issues. surprise, its a natural cause of death for that profession.
or instead of going against police who actually have to shoot someone who refuses to stop attacking someone..
focus on the fact that your dark skinned gang banger is more likely to kill or be killed because they wore the wrong color shoe laces in the wrong area. Seriously, when you have any social or racial group that blames the police for all violence, that believes its GOOD to shoot someone in the head because they wore the wrong gang colors in your hood, then you really have an animal situation.
If one social/racial group is 5 times more likely to be involved in armed crime, or drugs, or crime in general. then one would expect that group to be killed more.
look at the chicago stats for the last year in violent crime. 80% of all people killed by violent crime are gasp,,,,, wanna be gangsters killed over drugs and turf issues. surprise, its a natural cause of death for that profession.
or instead of going against police who actually have to shoot someone who refuses to stop attacking someone..
focus on the fact that your dark skinned gang banger is more likely to kill or be killed because they wore the wrong color shoe laces in the wrong area. Seriously, when you have any social or racial group that blames the police for all violence, that believes its GOOD to shoot someone in the head because they wore the wrong gang colors in your hood, then you really have an animal situation.
'Defund the police' is a dead letter movement. Many municipalities have requirements for police baked into their founding charters.
However, I have thought for years that reform is desperately needed.
Police don't interact with the public anymore, they just ride around in their cruisers and write tickets. I have almost no interaction with my local PD, and they are my neighbors. The one time I did have an interaction with him was negative. He isn't a nice or respectful. I know it is just one guy but...
And has been mentioned many times in this thread, the militarization of the police is a terrible idea. I feel like watching these cops in tactical gear, I am seeing people cosplay as military. It is pretty frightening.
Get them out of the damn cars and walk neighborhoods and TALK to people. Break down the us/them wall.
I tried to sign up for my local 'citizen academy' so that I could get to actually know some of my police and maybe have a chance to interact with them in a positive way, but I guess there won't be one this year due to covid.
However, I have thought for years that reform is desperately needed.
Police don't interact with the public anymore, they just ride around in their cruisers and write tickets. I have almost no interaction with my local PD, and they are my neighbors. The one time I did have an interaction with him was negative. He isn't a nice or respectful. I know it is just one guy but...
And has been mentioned many times in this thread, the militarization of the police is a terrible idea. I feel like watching these cops in tactical gear, I am seeing people cosplay as military. It is pretty frightening.
Get them out of the damn cars and walk neighborhoods and TALK to people. Break down the us/them wall.
I tried to sign up for my local 'citizen academy' so that I could get to actually know some of my police and maybe have a chance to interact with them in a positive way, but I guess there won't be one this year due to covid.
That I agree with. My dad was NYPD from 1950 until mandatory retirement in 1983. He walked a beat for decades, getting to know the shop owners, the neighborhood kids, their parents, etc.
Of course back then, most kids had two parents, even in the poor black slum section part of his precinct. That old saying Wait til your father gets home" had some meaning back then. Maybe these "social whatever they're called" can be doing the same thing and maybe, just maybe, that will go a long way. I have my doubts but I have been wrong before (just ask my wife!)
I heard a new term I think I like I’ve not put significant thought into it but it might be a step in the right direction . The term is refund the police . It sounds like defund so maybe it doesn’t lose the sting that the defund people want but really more represents what people may think is best ?
I'll say it again.
Some of the citizen anti cop sentiment comes from the bad attitude and poor choices of the citizen.
If you have problems with one cop out of a hundred,OK,maybe a bad cop. If you have problems with seven out of ten cops,you are probably a jerk.
But I also think it is self defeating to say there is no room for improvement among the police.
I have watched a lot of the cop bashing you tube videos. Yes,the youtuber is often very antagonistic toward the cop..
I'm not excusing that part. But what the youtuber often exposes is the cop is either not well informed of the law,Constitutional rights,etc,or the cop steps on those to expedite filling out a report,or to assert dominance,or whatever.
People are PO'd because cops do violate civil rights,and some cops escalate things way out of proportion.
Thats not good for the citizen,the cop,or the citizen/cop relationship.
So,perhaps there is a lack. Of knowledge.
Is there anything about defunding that will help cops be more aware of the laws and civil rights?
No.
Its going to take training. When can a cop demand ID? When can a citizen decline to show ID.? Or,what are the laws on open carry,and where is the fine line where a law abiding citizen is being harrassed?
Sure,we all have our opinions. And that is the problem. Those don't matter.
Its the law that matters.
I know budgets and man hours are in short supply.
Refer to J Edwards Demings book,"Out of the Crisis" Refer to his "Seven deadly sins"
Thinking short term,and cutting training.
It will take training to improve the quality of law enforcement.
Now, I want to be clear,I don;t say that to imply law enforcement is the primary problem. Our citizens and society have their shortcomings.
No amount of budget or training cops will fix eople fighting cuffs,or running,or doing what citizens do to get tased or shot,etc.
I think some percentage of those crisis situations are unnecessary and created by the process.
Thomas Jefferson said something like " If it does not rob my pocket or break my leg,its none of my concern"
And Benjamin Franklin designed a coin with the motto "Mind your business"
Perhaps a certain amount of "pro-active police work" amounts to fishing for something to escalate.
I suggest I've offered some areas of citizen concern
Cutting budget won't help.
Some of the citizen anti cop sentiment comes from the bad attitude and poor choices of the citizen.
If you have problems with one cop out of a hundred,OK,maybe a bad cop. If you have problems with seven out of ten cops,you are probably a jerk.
But I also think it is self defeating to say there is no room for improvement among the police.
I have watched a lot of the cop bashing you tube videos. Yes,the youtuber is often very antagonistic toward the cop..
I'm not excusing that part. But what the youtuber often exposes is the cop is either not well informed of the law,Constitutional rights,etc,or the cop steps on those to expedite filling out a report,or to assert dominance,or whatever.
People are PO'd because cops do violate civil rights,and some cops escalate things way out of proportion.
Thats not good for the citizen,the cop,or the citizen/cop relationship.
So,perhaps there is a lack. Of knowledge.
Is there anything about defunding that will help cops be more aware of the laws and civil rights?
No.
Its going to take training. When can a cop demand ID? When can a citizen decline to show ID.? Or,what are the laws on open carry,and where is the fine line where a law abiding citizen is being harrassed?
Sure,we all have our opinions. And that is the problem. Those don't matter.
Its the law that matters.
I know budgets and man hours are in short supply.
Refer to J Edwards Demings book,"Out of the Crisis" Refer to his "Seven deadly sins"
Thinking short term,and cutting training.
It will take training to improve the quality of law enforcement.
Now, I want to be clear,I don;t say that to imply law enforcement is the primary problem. Our citizens and society have their shortcomings.
No amount of budget or training cops will fix eople fighting cuffs,or running,or doing what citizens do to get tased or shot,etc.
I think some percentage of those crisis situations are unnecessary and created by the process.
Thomas Jefferson said something like " If it does not rob my pocket or break my leg,its none of my concern"
And Benjamin Franklin designed a coin with the motto "Mind your business"
Perhaps a certain amount of "pro-active police work" amounts to fishing for something to escalate.
I suggest I've offered some areas of citizen concern
Cutting budget won't help.
The whole concept is somewhat misleading. Individual cities may cut their local police forces, but that means county and state forces have to step in and fill the gap. That means more workload for someone else while the mayor and/or city council can claim they did something. I guess they can use the money to build a statue or something.
Case in point: Portland. The state patrol has thrown their hands up and are pulling out. When things get even more chaotic, the governor will just ask for federal assistance.
Now you still have "cops" on the ground. Problem is, they're not locals and they're not serving the community. They're just there to put the hammer down. Result? More distrust of "the police" and scapegoating by the same officials who created the situation.
rwilson452
New member
In my lifetime I have only been badly treated by an LEO twice. Both were fired. One in California. I was given to understand he would never again be allowed to be in Law enforcement in CA. One was here in PA. No word from our Chief but he was gone and moved away,
I don't think so , they are making bad decisions that are costing lives property and a whole lot of money . You can't just say oops my bad , here let me fix it for ya . It's not like backing other policies where being wrong for the right reasons has no real consequences and you can just reverse course . These are bad screw ups and those making those bad decisions are not supported by the "protesters" either . I'm not sure where they think they get the votes and if that's a real political strategy , this nation is in big trouble .
stinkeypete
New member
1. For all the opinions, one might start at Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defund_the_police
2. As for the racist rubbish about blacks being more prone to crime, on a state by state basis African Americans are two to three times more likely to be living below the federal poverty line than whites so I'm gonna challenge that racist crap with the hypothesis that POOR PEOPLE in URBAN SETTINGS commit more crimes than wealthy people in the suburbs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defund_the_police
2. As for the racist rubbish about blacks being more prone to crime, on a state by state basis African Americans are two to three times more likely to be living below the federal poverty line than whites so I'm gonna challenge that racist crap with the hypothesis that POOR PEOPLE in URBAN SETTINGS commit more crimes than wealthy people in the suburbs.
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