Defense blames cop's guns in Diallo shooting

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panzerfuehrer

New member
Hmmm, they musta been using them new caliber 9 mm magnum automatic service revolvers with the hair triggers that will fire 4 bullets a second.

FMJ is now "body piercing" ammo??? Army has known that for a long time......
 
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DorGunR

New member
"body piercing" ammo???
I always thought the Police was SUPPOSED to
carry this type of ammo, otherwise..what's the point? :confused:

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"Lead, follow or get the HELL out of the way."
 
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Glenn E. Meyer

New member
Here's a quote from the apb site:

Stephen Worth, the attorney for accused Officer Edward McMellon, explained that several years ago the police department switched from .38-caliber revolvers to 9 mm
semiautomatic weapons, which require a strong pull for the first shot, but allow hair-trigger shots for the remaining 15 bullets, making it easy to empty an entire
clip. The New York Police Department (NYPD) also chose full-metal jacket bullets because they were smoother and fired rapidly.

---

If this was my lawyer I would pretty scared because he is an idiot or lying (given the reporter is accurate)

1. It sound like an SA/DA gun not a Glock
2. The NY Glock is not hair trigger
3. What the hell does smoother and more rapid
mean in the use of a semiauto. Are they
supposed to jam?
4. Clip = mag? I know this is an issue for
use in the choir but if I wanted my
lawyer to defend me in a gun case - then
he better be perfect on the mark.

bye
 
C

Coinneach

Staff Alumnus
Stephen Worth, the attorney for accused Officer Edward McMellon, explained that several years ago the police department switched from .38-caliber revolvers to 9 mm
semiautomatic weapons, which require a strong pull for the first shot, but allow hair-trigger shots for the remaining 15 bullets,

That sounds like DA/SA to me. Ain't no DA/SA Glocks.

making it easy to empty an entire
clip.

As opposed to difficult?

The New York Police Department (NYPD) also chose full-metal jacket bullets because they were smoother and fired rapidly.

Smoother? ***, over? And what the screaming blue hell does FMJ have to do with slide cycling and lock time? NYPD went with FMJs because:

1) That's what the Army uses, and they wouldn't use comparatively weak ammo, now would they? :rolleyes:

2) The idiots in Acquisition have never heard of overpenetration. Of course, if your accuracy is on par with the average NY cop, you don't have to worry about OP because you're not gonna hit your target anyway.

This lawyer needs to be drawn and quartered.

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"If your determination is fixed, I do not counsel you to despair. Few things are impossible to diligence and skill. Great works are performed not by strength, but perseverance."
-- Samuel Johnson
 
F

Futo Inu

New member
Gee, body-piercing ammo? What a concept. Next time they should give the cops bullets that magically stop and drop to the ground upon reaching the subject, thus scaring him into submission. Bean bag rounds and such are only types of non-body-piercing rounds.

Actually, this kind of defense is good news in a way. It will force the NY DA (a government agency) to go to great pains to prove that a Glock's trigger pull is long and stout, which will make other gov't plaintiff's hard(er) pressed to deny this in the future, in other cases where Glock is sued (it was a glock, wasn't it?)
 
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Karanas

New member
This case is the logical culmination of years of carefully cultivated anti propaganda.
If these cops, as trained professionals, can lose control of their issue sidearms, as evidenced in this incident, then what hope is there that the rest of us won't fall victim to the same demon possessed hardware from hell?
Excuse me while I go sprinkle some holy water in the direction of my gun safe. :rolleyes:
 
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Gwinnydapooh

Retired Screen Name
You think that's bad . . . I read this thread just before I went to sculpture class today. I've been watching the trial but I missed this crap so I was a tad steamed. In class I brought it up. Not only had these COLLEGE EDUCATED, bright young people never heard of Amadou Diallo, they didn't even get it when I jokingly referred the attorney talking about body-piercing bullets. They just looked at me. One guy said "well, they don't really need those special bullets."
I spend about ten minutes on them before they realized that ALL bullets are body-piercing and it would be suicide to carry anything else.
Ready for the good news? Me too.
The good news is, I then made a joke about the guns firing themselves and somebody said very earnestly "That's bull****, man, guns don't shoot by themselves. Those cops did the shooting and now they don't want to take the blame!"

(I know some of us think the cops may have been justified. I do too, I'm just ecstatic that somebody came up with the all-important concept that the humans are responsible for whatever happened.
 
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Hard Ball

New member
Well, live and learn. I always wondered why the FMJ bal lammunition bullets we used in the Army were so smooth. Now I know that this made them "body piercers." You can sure learn a lot from New York City lawyers.
 
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Glenn E. Meyer

New member
As I posted before, it sounds like the defense attorney is describing a SA/DA gun.

The rationale for the gun was that the first heavier pull would stop looney blastomatic
responses. So that would like a big flop
for the SA/DA crowd. I suppose someone could still argue the heavier pull influence ND rate.

When the NYPD went to semis, I vaguely recall that they allowed Glocks and some SW models.
The later would be SA/DA but I remember that the Diallo guns were Glocks. It would be really stupid to not know these.

Just heard an old fart on CourtTV - ex-cop
denouncing the Glock and arguing for a return to the "six shooter" and round nose lead as
you can't blast away and RNL stays in the body or doesn't richocet. Oh well! Probably a great friend of the RKBA.
 
J

Jake 98c/11b

New member
As I recall the NYPD originally adopted three guns, the Glock, the Sig 228 and one of the S&W autos but the S&W and the Sig were DAO. Originally they limited the mags to 10 rounds but later changed to full capacity mags. Could be they relented on the DAO as well but I hadn't heard.
The whole article shows the ignorance of people who should know better. Any attorney I deal with in a similar case will know what he is talking about.
 
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dinosaur

New member
Believe it or not, Young is a good lawyer and good lawyers don`t have to tell the truth. Remember who he`s talking to. He just needs to raise reasonable doubt. The charge of 2nd degree murder should not fly because you need intent to prove it. The cops are probably screwed as far as the job goes but unless the jury is influneced by outside pressure, it will be ruled an accidental shooting. The R.E. charge was put there as a backup since the prosecution knows its case is weak.
The Glock is/was a ticking time bomb and there are other cases of this type. The first was back around 1992 or 93 when the Transit Police (pre merge) were first authorizeed the Glocks. Two Transit Detectives emptied their guns at an armed suspect and all the rounds were low. The perp didn`t die as he was shot in the legs. This was cause for concern naturally and was one of the reasons the city only wanted 10 round mags. They eventually relented.
The NYPD tested the Ruger also but dropped it for some reason. The field tests were conducted by giving 9`s to some detectives and also to the Sergeants Operators. The thinking was since they were usually under direct supervision of the Patrol Supervisor there would be less problems. Starting in 1994 the 9`s were issued to the classes in the Academy and the street cops were allowed to acquire the 9`s. I was offered the opportunity on Jan. 2 of 94 to go for the training but turned it down since it was too cold! Three days later I had my heart attack and since I wouldn`t return to work, I couldn`t buy one. I would have had to go for the training and that wasn`t possible. To bad as I believe a Glock was $300 or $350 and after that I think the cops were reimbursed the whole amount.
Coinneach, when you were with the NYPD where did you work? You must have been in a lot of gunfights. I only had 19 1/2 years and never fired a shot on the street, not even an AD. I wish we were partners. you`d have showed me a thing or two, huh?
 
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George Hill

Staff Alumnus
Okay, look at the situation...
Officers on scene thinks this guy has a gun - and order subject to stop or what not and the subject doesnt comply...
Thats a good shoot to me from the limited information on hand. They thought the subject was armed and dangerous. They were afraid of the subject. They fired upon the subject to no avail... This is almost a NIGHTMARE for many officers and other shooters. So as a response they unload into the subject. That seems to be a natural reaction.
The guns and bullets they use is all BS and the case hinges on the first issue.
*** was this guy doing to make the Officers afraid of him and to lead them to believe that he had a weapon and was going to use it? Thats the key to the case. The bull**** smoke screen should be transparent to the jury unless they selected complete idiots and anti-police types. And I understand a jury is like a pack of cards... you can stack the deck however you like these days.
:mad:

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I mean, if I went around saying I was an Emperor because some
moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, people would put me away!
 
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dinosaur

New member
George;
In the real world what you`re saying is true. However, in NYC you`re playing a different game. No matter how this case comes out, it will be political hay for Hillary. She`ll try and show how Guliani`s "Gestapo" carries out his orders. I`m no fan of Guliani either. The object in any case is to win. Any defense lawyer will tell you he`s not bound to the truth. On this board, you have handgun experts scrutinizing so they know better. They`d make bad jurors for the defense.
If you haven`t read the sidebars I suggest you read at least why there was a change of venue. It`s not just because of the protests of the "beautiful" people such as Jackson, Sarandon, Dinkins, who by the way even after at least 2 murders in Crown Heights ordered the police to do nothing for 3 days, et al. No cop asks for a jury trial in the Bronx under any circumstances. They always ask for trial by a judge. Now if you were to go on trial where you live, Would your lawyer recommend that? One vote versus 12?
In the one arrest in Crown Heights, the jury disregarded direct evidence found on the perp, a bloody knife, even though the cops recovered it from the perp`s pocket. After they found the perp not guilty, the jurors attended a party thrown by the defense lawyers that same night. Fair trials may happen where you are, and some who read this are saying b.s., but that`s the way it is. Remember O.J.
 
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Cowboy

New member
"Faster guns, more bullets and less stopping power all result in more shots, he told the racially mixed jury."

Faster Guns? (As opposed to slower ones?)
What the heck, is it just me, or these people are complete idiots?
Never mind, they're complete idiots...
Cowboy
 
B

Blue Jays

New member
Hi Everyone-

Here's a letter written by a mental-midget (no flames, please ;)) named David Schroedel from Sleepy Hollow, NY to The New York Times on Friday, February 4, 2000:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Learn from Diallo Case

To the Editor:

One of the unexplored issues in the tragic shooting of Amadou Diallo is the role that semiautomatic pistols played in the discharge of 41 bullets by four police officers in a few seconds (front page, February 3, 2000).

This case should lead the New York Police Department to revisit the decision to arm officers with rapid-fire weapons.

It also demonstrates that the decision, which came in response to a misguided notion that criminals were also heavily-armed, inevitably leads to terrible mistakes.

David Schroedel
Sleepy Hollow, NY[/quote]


You just have to love how writer Schroedel passes his judgement on how "heavily-armed" the NYPD is today.

Yeah, send those gallant officers into harm's way with a hatpin and an attitude. I could picture this pusillanimous crybaby hiding behind an officer yelling, "Shoot, shoot, shoot!" if some thugs gave him a scare in the subway.

Sheesh!

Regards,

~ Blue Jays ~

[This message has been edited by Blue Jays (edited February 04, 2000).]
 
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Donny

New member
Does the defense attorney know of a document(s), called the Geneva Convention. It's very speicifc about why the mmilitary forces are to use FMJ. This is not negotiable, and violations are punishable in the World Court.

"Body-Piercing Ammo", A BB gun will pierce the skin, for crying out loud!

Any bets, if the guys are acquited, there's unrest in the village? Spontaneoous combustion, that sort of thing.

Best REgards,
Don



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The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
 
P

Puddle Pirate

New member
Isn't the world speed record held by a S&W revolver? And where did the NYPD get SA/DA Glocks?

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"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." -Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-8.
 
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