Defective Hornady brass?

[ClemBert]

Anyone have any comments on the quality of Hornady brass? In the picture below you can see a defective 460 S&W Magnum brass casing. This cartridge was fired with about 50 grains of FFFg black powder with a 150 grain bullet. This is brand new brass fired just the one time. The amount of pressure developed is no where near what a 460 S&W Magnum would develop with smokeless powder. I don't feel like doing a failure analysis but looking down from the top of the casing it is clear that the split side is thinner than the side opposite. Without getting all bent outta shape I thought I'd ask the question here first.

 

[Cascade1911]

Yikes! I'm no authority (so then why are you opening your mouth?) but my understanding is that black powder explodes vs smokeless powder burns really fast. A look in my Hornady manual list loads of maybe 40 grains in the neighborhood of 296. A slow burning smokless powder will impart more energy and velocity but it does so by accelerating the bullet for a longer time. Black powder does most of its work in a short amount of time and space.


After doing a little reading online it seems the trick with using black powder is to leave zero space between powder and bullet. Actually talking loading within 1/16th to 1/8 inch from the top and then ramming the bullet in.

 

[jeepster11]

first question

why were you using black powder? i have most hornady cases for my 460 and i use h110. i have never had one split and i have shot them several times each

 

[ClemBert]

why were you using black powder? i have most hornady cases for my 460 and i use h110. i have never had one split and i have shot them several times each

The use of black powder in this application is somewhat irrelevant. I mentioned it only because I wanted to indicate that this was a relatively low pressure load. It kind of makes you wonder what would have happened with a high pressure load from a normal 460 S&W Magnum load.

 

[ClemBert]

Yikes! I'm no authority (so then why are you opening your mouth?) but my understanding is that black powder explodes vs smokeless powder burns really fast. A look in my Hornady manual list loads of maybe 40 grains in the neighborhood of 296. A slow burning smokless powder will impart more energy and velocity but it does so by accelerating the bullet for a longer time. Black powder does most of its work in a short amount of time and space.


After doing a little reading online it seems the trick with using black powder is to leave zero space between powder and bullet. Actually talking loading within 1/16th to 1/8 inch from the top and then ramming the bullet in.

Black powder does NOT explode.! (period, exclamation mark) Yes, I know how to load BP cartridges.

This thread concerns defective Hornady brass.

 

[jeepster11]

aparently

somethings not right because i havent split one yet using regular powder not black powder. i really doubt the brass was deffective but not saying it is impossible. my guess would still be using it for something it wasnt intended for.

 

[ClemBert]

Well, as I had pointed out, the side that is split is clearly thinner than the unsplit side. It could be a bad assumption on my part that it is defective. My 50 AE and 45 Colt brass is new Starline brass. Rumour has it that Starline makes their brass a little thicker. This is my first experience with Hornady brass.

It is common to stuff 40 grains FFFg black powder in a 45 Colt cartridge. This is the max that 45 Colt will hold. The 45 Colt, of course, is the parent casing for 454 Casull, and 454 Casull is the parent case for 460 S&W Magnum.

It would be interesting for someone who loads 45-70 with 70 grains of black powder chime in. Some of those guy are stuffing a 500 grain plus bullet ontop of 70 grains of BP and as such are going to have much higher pressure than what I am doing.

I'd be surprised if I was pushing more than 1100 fps. Pretty uninteresting by smokeless powder standards. Again, this is only a 150 grain bullet.

 

[dawico]

If is just one case, it may have been defective. Is that the case, or is it a bunch of them?

 

[ClemBert]

That picture is THE case. There is only one out of about 36 where this happened. I'm just wondering if I should expect more of this issue out of the Hornady brass. Is it even worth having a discussion with Hornady?

 

[dahermit]

It looks like the standard "brittle fracture". If it is the only round that was affected, it would appear that, that particular case escaped being annealed after forming. It should have been ductile enough from annealing to withstand the first hand load without cracking no matter what the pressure. Cases do not exhibit such cracks caused by over-pressure, they would just blow a primer, stick in the chamber, etc.
If you can see that the case is thinner on one side than the other, it is a defective piece of brass. Hornady brass does not have a negative reputation.

 

[ClemBert]

If it wasn't properly annealed then I wonder how many of them from that lot might expect to have this issue. Its only a box of 50 but if this box has issues would it make sense to contact Hornady and possibly send this casing to them for failure analysis? Read this to mean I'd be happy to send them a box of potentially defective brass in exchange for some "good" brass.

Thoughts? A waste of time...or I'd just get denial from Hornady?

 

[PA-Joe]

Have you contacted Hornady and asked them this question? Did they offer to send you a replacement? By the way, how is your barrel?

 

[ClemBert]

No, I haven't contacted Hornady. I just wanted to get some opinions from others first to see if they've seen this before. I didn't know if one should expect to see this one out of every 10,000 casing or what. I only have 50 pieces and this casing was only fired just the one time. Also, I didn't know if anyone had any experience with contacting the various brass companies and getting positive response from them.

The barrel and cylinder are just fine. No worries there.

 

[FrankenMauser]

It very well could be a single piece of defective brass (stuff happens), but...

The shape and location of that crack looks like it started in the body of the case - not at the mouth. That may indicate an issue with the chamber it was fired in, or an issue with sizing the brass in the wrong sizing die.

And, yes, every straight-wall cartridge I have ever looked at from Starline had significantly thicker case walls.

 

[alloy]

Totally unfamiliar with your cartidge, but I've noticed lately all the Hornady brass I pick up at the range, has been up to .060 shorter than published case specs.
This has been in .357, .44 mag, and .45 LC. Evidently it's a spec for Leverevolution projectiles?
I googled and found this http://www.hornady.com/store/460-SW-200-gr-FTX-LEVERevolution/
Any chance you got a brass for this ammo in a mixup, giving you a higher pressure than you are expecting?

A long shot.

 

[ClemBert]

I'm really not expecting the kind of pressure you would get from a full load with smokeless powder and a large weight bullet. This is black powder afterall. It is terribly inefficient. I just wouldn't expect black powder to create more pressure than you'll see from the heavier loads of 460 S&W Magnum. Again, my bullet weight is only 150 grains. 45-70 Government can have 70+ grains of powder and a 500+ grain bullet. 45-100 even more.

 

[DaleA]

Know anybody with a ball micrometer? I ‘think’ it would let you measure the thickness of the case wall from one side to the other and then you would have additional ‘ammunition’ in the form of actual numbers to send off to Hornady. You might also use it to test your other cases. I do NOT have a ball micrometer and am not really sure it would work for this. RCBS among others sells them for ‘measuring case neck thickness’ and they’re kind of pricey IMhO…around $65.

I’ve always had good thoughts about Hornady and would hope if you just sent them the case they would make things right.

 

[misskimo]

send it in to hornady
what dahermit said, I think! this is what kind of answer you would get from Hornady ,
and then they would lay it on you about useing black powder. just like jeepster 11 said,
Also! I bet Hornady will sure ask why you would load a 150 g bullet in this gun. look at the data, 200 g to 395g is whats listed? well theres one case of useing a 500 g that kicks like a mule too. I dont see black powder, or a 150 g bullet listed. theirs 2 things I see wrong. so what more can you ask for. dont follow the rules, you get a ticket ( or a busted case).
After the answer you get from Hornady, and by the sound of your short fuse on here , will just knurl your toenail and blow an eardrum gasket huh?

I wonder if I can use black powder and a 90 g bullet in my 338 rifle? NAW! Ill stick with what my rifle bible says. SMOKELESS POWDER and the right size bullets!

 

[ClemBert]

It looks like the standard "brittle fracture".

Based on the picture below I'd tend to conclude that you are right. It appears that this isn't just a tear in the brass. It looks like it fractured because of its brittleness.

After the answer you get from Hornady, and by the sound of your short fuse on here , will just knurl your toenail and blow an eardrum gasket huh?

Huh? Where did that come from?

 

[ClemBert]

I sent off that fractured brass casing to Hornady the other day. Hopefully, I can get an answer back from them in the next couple of weeks.

Some of you fellas were interested in knowing why this cartridge was loaded with black powder. Here's a short video with the answer. None of the video action includes the case failure with the 50 grain load.

Test Firing the .45 BPM in a Walker Revolver