Decisions,Decisions

[pbrktrt]

I have been saving and now with a tax return I can swing the purchase I was saving for. The new Red Label 28". The problem now is I've been offered a plain Jane Citori for $750.00. It is a 28" choke tube gun. The Ruger fits me nicely, more like the SKB I had years ago. The Citori is a proven workhorse but taller in the receiver and just feels thicker. I could probably adapt to either, honestly. I do like the looks and the mechanical trigger on the Ruger. Please give me some feedback to help me decide. TIA

 

[drcook]

I think you are answering your own question. Go back and reread what you posted.

Fit and feel have so much to do with how well you will shoot the gun.

 

[pbrktrt]

Thanks for the reply DR, I believe you are correct. I'm just a little leery of a new gun but Ruger is a quality manufacturer and I've been happy with many of their other products. And there is something about stainless & blue that I like. I wish I could afford both!

 

[BigJimP]

Ruger has had a spotty record for reliability, durability, etc on their shotguns for the last 15 yrs or so...( trigger issues, ejectors breaking, some stock issues, etc )

(I'm reminded of a young guy coming out to my local range with a new Ruger - fresh out of the box a few yrs ago ) ....and on station 2 shooting skeet, the rib flew off the end of the barrel / and he was pretty disappointed / and I saw him a few months later and he had not received the gun back from Ruger at that point) - and he had since bought a used gun to use in the meantime.

The new versions may be better - or they may not / no way to tell by looking at them ...

One of my buddies has one of the original versions of the Red Label - don't remember how old it is / and his has been fine...
---------------
For my money, buy the Browning Citori ( if it fits you )....I think you'll be happier in the long run ....and down the road...if the new Ruger is holding up, buy it in a 20ga or 28ga or whatever.../ everybody on this forum knows I'm a loyal Browning Citori fan ....but I can tell you in my experience, both Browning and Beretta will give you the most gun for the money in O/U's ).

 

[zippy13]

everybody on this forum knows I'm a loyal Browning Citori fan

fan=shill?

I'm not up to speed on the new Red Label, so I can only judge by past experience. Ruger is known for favoring MIMed parts and they aren't as strong as equivalent forged parts. How much of the new RL is MIMed? Just the other day, I was working on a MIMed Ruger trigger and it broke under the light pressure from being clamped. BigJim was kind referring to the Red Label's history as being spotty, many voice harsher criticism. Yes, the Citori has a thicker stock than the Ruger -- most shooters find that a positive feature.

 

[Virginian]

I don't know what Ruger's problem with shotguns is. They surely build some tough revolvers and rifles, that overall have very few issues, and it would appear to me those actions are a LOT more complicated to build than an O/U. They had recurring issues with the first iteration O/Us for years. The Ruger fans laud their customer service, but that doesn't erase the issues. From what I hear, the new ones are already having issues as well, but everyone lining up to buy a "great" American made O/U don't want to hear it. I wonder if precision investment casting - which is Ruger's forte, and is far different from MIM - isn't adopting to shotguns or what. They have gone to a one piece receiver casting, but that doesn't appear to have cured the ills. I do wish they would get everything worked out, and reintroduce the Gold Label. I have quite a few Rugers and have always liked their products and support. The Red Label has stood out because it does NOT enjoy the same level of reliability as their other products.

 

[pbrktrt]

Thanks again for the replies, it's what I was looking for. Can you elaborate on the issues the new Rugers are having? I have not found any negative press but that is to be expected. I like to read about real world problems. The Citori is starting to look like the way to go and I can't beat the price.

 

[BigJimP]

Virginian may see more of the Rugers than I do at my local range...

But the problem in asking about the new versions....is a lot of shooters only put 250 shells a year thru their guns / and some of us that shoot clays put 250 shells a week thru our guns - Just in practice alone ( let alone in weekly tournaments).../ and problems may not show up for awhile depending on usage / and no one shooting a lot of clays - is looking for a red label ( its all Browning / Beretta / Blaser / Perazzi / Kolar and Krieghoff ) in the O/U target gun market....and I know I've left a few companies out like Zoli, Ljutic, etc .

The real issue in my mind is the durability of the barrel to receiver lockup ...and the metallurgy in the inner workings of an O/U ...and I thought I'd heard that the Ruger shotguns were still being made in Turkey ( which has not been known for a long time as a quality manufacturing center on guns )...but maybe Ruger is doing more work inhouse....its hard to really tell / a lot of mfg's tend to hide what they're really doing...with marketing hype.

 

[dgludwig]

and I thought I'd heard that the Ruger shotguns were still being made in Turkey

I'd be interested in learning where you got this information from. Insofar as I know, Ruger Red Labels have always been made in America. And, unless I'm wrong about this, it does a disservice to one's credibility to allege things that simply aren't true. Which is why I'm interested in learning the truth about this question-and everything else, for that matter.

 

[BigJimP]

Like I said.....that's what I've heard ....but I don't know if its true or not..../ if you find one in a local store - see what the box says ...and educate us.

But the poor record on quality - of Ruger shotguns / regardless of where they are being made ...is certainly well established in my opinion / so I guess I don't really care where they were made / or are being made today.

I was just repeating what I'd heard...and I should be more cautious about that - so you're point is well taken / because like I said, I do not know.

 

[dgludwig]

But the poor record on quality - of Ruger shotguns / regardless of where they are being made ...is certainly well established in my opinion

And where might this allegation be empirically affirmed (no hearsay or anecdotal "evidence" please)?

 

[Virginian]

I have heard of two that have gone back for light primer strikes, and rounds slipping past the ejectors; talked to one owner personally and his is on the second trip back. He had a problem free 28 ga version of the old Red Label so decided to take the plunge. There are a few other horror stories on the net. I can not give you first hand info because I am not about to buy one. I am not a big O/U fan, but if I got one it would be a Beretta, no question on that. I don't like the tall receiver on the Browning Superposed/Citori/Cynergy, or ported barrels.

 

[BigJimP]

Based on a number of failures I've seen on Rugers - on relatively new guns over the last 10 yrs ....shotguns that were being shot at shotgun ranges in my area ( ribs coming loose, ejectors failing, trigger issues - guns doubling & springs and firing pins breaking, stocks cracking.../ covers most of what I've seen ).

Maybe you're experience is different on Ruger shotguns... I'm not trying to get into a contest here on Ruger shotgun quality / but based on what I've seen they're terrible !

Based on what I've seen out of Ruger shotguns - I'm recommending the OP not buy one ...but you're free to disagree with me / and recommend he should consider the Ruger ...its up to you. I would not buy one...at any price.

 

[dgludwig]

I have heard of two that have gone back for light primer strikes, and rounds slipping past the ejectors;

I can not give you first hand info because I am not about to buy one.

The very definitions of "anecdotal" "evidence"

Maybe you're experience is different on Ruger shotguns...

Well, yes, it has been. In terms of the trap league I've competed in and reports from a skeet league promoted by my local gun club, the Ruger shotgun has performed perfectly. But, of course, this "data" is also predicated on anecdotal evidence and is accordingly suspect to error. I'm interested in real, hard-core, empiracle evidence- and nothing else. I'm interested in learning the facts, not merely hearsay or individual experience accounts. Where is the real evidence that the Ruger shotgun is prone to failure or problems not common to other shotguns of its ilk?

 

[pbrktrt]

This is the info I have not been able to clearly pin down. Some stories of beta testers that supposedly had 20 gauges also. I know the Citori is a solid, safe bet. I'm 5'10" and a 150 lbs. It doesn't quite fit like the SKB I had which I couldn't seem to miss with. I would like to give my money to a company that employs Americans, but if the product isn't up to snuff, Nobody is happy. I think the smart money right now is buy the Citori and down the road, if the Ruger proves it really is fixed, give it a shot. Thanks for all the insight and advice. The fit issue I can deal with, I've learned to shoot a lot of different platforms.

 

[BigJimP]

All you're ever going to get is anecdotal evidence...based on the limited number of guns any of us see at our local ranges....and even if the Rugers we see do fail often ...none of us has any idea if or how well they were maintained / or if they were mistreated...that may have contributed to the failures. Absolute proof....isn't going to be there..../ we will all have to settle for what we see - and hear from shooters.

In my area....if you are perusing the gun racks at a local club shoot for Trap, Skeet or Sporting Clays.../ in my opinion, the number of Ruger shotguns you'll see ....( out of 100 O/U shotguns say ) ...will be 5 or 10 at the most / Rugers are not widely used even at casual club events / and the more serious the tournament...regionals, state tournaments, etc... / the less of them you will see around the event.

You'll have to ask yourself why that is ....but in my opinion, if they were holding up, and shooters were hearing they were holding up pretty well ....you would see a lot more of them / because they're relatively inexpensive compared especially to O/U's like Browning and Beretta --- and you'd see guys buying a few of them for young shooters, etc..

In my area...Trap shooters are a little different / but you won't see hardly any 28" or 30" barreled O/U's among serious Trap shooters...( 32" barreled O/U's are common / or 34" singles )... Browning, Beretta, Blaser, Perazzi, Ljutic, Kolar, Krieghoff make up at least 90% of the guns I see - with the bulk of them being Browning or Beretta.

Skeet .../ and sporting clays - you'll still see some 26" and 28" barrels / but 30" barrels are common...and Browning, Beretta, Blaser, Perazzi make up the majority of guns I see...but there are always a few Kolar and Krieghoff as well...especially in full length tubed guns.

Now I'm not saying all the guns I see are higher end Browning or Beretta's ...I still see a lot of Silver Piegon Berettas or Lightning model Brownings...especially among new or young shooters.....but I see way more gas operated semi-autos (mostly Beretta ) that will far outnumber O/U's from Ruger....as entry level guns for new shooters.../and guys buy them for young shooters because they're a lot of gun for the money as a learning gun for new shooters.

All of the Rugers I've seen at my local club....were brought out by casual shooters.../ not guys you see every week....

But proof ....no, you aren't going to find any /... any more than the anecdotal evidence you cite based on what you see in your leagues, etc...its all anecdotal.

 

[dgludwig]

It doesn't quite fit like the SKB I had which I couldn't seem to miss with.

When you've experienced a gun that shoots that well for you, it's something not to dismiss lightly. If I were you, I'd start searching for an identical SKB and buy it once you find it. They're not uncommon to see at gun shows and internet auction sites and are relatively affordable. Just make sure it's not a Turkish-made variant. I hear they don't hold up as well.

 

[BigJimP]

There are currently 29 models of the Citori in Brownings catalog....and they've recently taken out one of the models that I still think is one of the best guns in the Citori line / the parallel comb Citori XS Skeet model ---- so I don't know which model you're looking at ...but they are all solid guns.

But you should at least look at some of the Browning offerings in the Cynergy line of guns as well.

As suggested you might try to find some SKB's .....they were good guns for the money as well / and I don't know who owns the SKB name these days - but the last I knew, they had stopped production at least 3 yrs ago. I see a few around at gunshows and at my local club once in a while / guys seemed to be having good luck the SKB's.

Put a note card on the bulletin board at your local shotgun club ....most any clay target shooter has all kinds of shotguns in their safe...and if you're looking for something specific / someone may not be advertising it for sale, but they may contact you and offer you something. ( I'm not selling anything ---but I've kept 6 or 7 of the Lightning model in both 12ga and 20ga with 28" barrels around for a few yrs to let the grandkids use, use for local scout troop outings at the club, new shooter clinics, etc....) and there are a lot of guys like me, that may have bought them 20 - 25 yrs ago .../ or they just buy them when the price is right when they find a nice clean one .. / keep them around ...until they decide they want to sell a few....).

Every shotgun club has a couple of guys ...that know who has extra guns that might be for sale.../ guns they've kept even though they shoot something else now because they couldn't get the right price for it - so they kept it.

 

[Virginian]

My mother told me not to touch the hot stove many, many years ago. I never regretted taking that anecdotal evidence. What evidence, other than anecdotal, do you have that it ISN'T a problematic shotgun?
To each their own.

 

[dgludwig]

What evidence, other than anecdotal, do you have that it ISN'T a problematic shotgun?

I didn't start out slamming a product based on individual complaints I hear on the internet or from fellow shooters. The "burden of proof" should be on the accuser, not the defender. And, when responding to this question,:
Quote:
"Maybe you're experience is different on Ruger shotguns..."

I conceded the following:
Quote:
"Well, yes, it has been. In terms of the trap league I've competed in and reports from a skeet league promoted by my local gun club, the Ruger shotgun has performed perfectly. But, of course, this 'data' is also predicated on anecdotal evidence and is accordingly suspect to error..."[/QUOTE]

My whole point is that, in the predictable absence of verifiable evidence, the benefit of doubt should be given to the "accused". And my experience with the Red Label shotgun over the past few decades, limited as it is and relying solely on shooters I know who own and use one (five people at last count), has been positive. The op was trying to decide on which shotgun to buy and, unless I learn of empirical evidence to the contrary concerning problems that are unique to the thousands and thousands of Red Labels produced over the years, I would advise him to not rule them out based merely on a few complaints from Ruger Red Label detractors. If you look hard enough, you will find people having legitimate issues with every shotgun ever made, from H&R Toppers to bespoken Purdys. And the more of them that are made, the more complaints you might logically expect to get.
To each their own, indeed.