Onward Allusion
New member
15 feet is way too close to attempt to get into your car, especially with a wife/girlfriend in tow. It takes a second to close that distance and you will be limiting your maneuver room.
Dealing with a "follower"
- Thread starter Ruark
- Start date
15 feet is way too close to attempt to get into your car, especially with a wife/girlfriend in tow. It takes a second to close that distance and you will be limiting your maneuver room.
TexasJustice7
New member
I think we are overly concerned about anyone following us, because of our training. This morning, very early at an IHOP I noticed four individuals heading toward a restaurant. I did not trust, them but as you said its not time to draw. The nice thing about my backup S&W 38 Spl is I placed my hand on the gun in my pocket, not drawing but very ready. Next I stepped off the sidewalk and waited off the sidewalk, so if they came off the sidewalk toward me, then would be time to warn, and then draw. I had a disabled daughter with me so I did not want all four of them behind me. After they went on by, I knew everything was fine, but I did not know that, if I turned away from them. One thing I have learned on these forums is the value of carrying a pocket gun where one does not have to draw but can still get ready to meet a threat. That way, nobody yells gun, or claims brandishing.
Wouldn't let unsavory characters follow me for half a block. If they made the same little detours I did, then that would make it rather obvious and they'd be hearing a very loud voice (more importantly, so would everyone else in the area). Their changing course to match mine, or intercept, is Orange alert--hand under coat on weapon. In winter, it's hand in heavy coat pocket holding 642. Hand on weapon is situational-- to be determined by specifics.
More than once, I've used the old stop to do a little window shopping trick, or acted like I needed to make a phone call, and then I was walking behind them.
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As offered by the OP, . . . could be a sticky situation, . . . especially in a "gun unfriendly" environment where they were just pranksters, or could pass themselves off as such.
My first inclination would be to cross the street to my left, . . . putting my wife on my right, . . . telling her to get her cell phone out, NOW, . . . and get ready to dial 911.
I would then seriously look for a dumpster against a wall, . . . a recessed doorway, . . . something that makes them come in to me.
I would duck in there and un-holster, hiding it behind my leg: and let the situation go from there. If they come in, . . . the loud question: "You guys lose something?, . . . got a problem?"
The ball is then in their court: no matter what they do, . . . I will call it in and wait for the cops, . . . in my little sheltered place.
The idea is to make them show their hand either way, . . .
May God bless,
Dwight
My first inclination would be to cross the street to my left, . . . putting my wife on my right, . . . telling her to get her cell phone out, NOW, . . . and get ready to dial 911.
I would then seriously look for a dumpster against a wall, . . . a recessed doorway, . . . something that makes them come in to me.
I would duck in there and un-holster, hiding it behind my leg: and let the situation go from there. If they come in, . . . the loud question: "You guys lose something?, . . . got a problem?"
The ball is then in their court: no matter what they do, . . . I will call it in and wait for the cops, . . . in my little sheltered place.
The idea is to make them show their hand either way, . . .
May God bless,
Dwight
youngunz4life
New member
If you feel threatened(for whatever reason//not trying to use a legal term this time, just that you are Truly worried), you should do something before they come upon you in my opinion. There is a much better chance you'll HAVE NO CHOICE but to draw if you do not confront the situation ahead of time. Either way, you'll definately be in more danger & more vulnerable.
I have never had this happen to me, but if I was nervous, scared, take your pick @ vocabulary, I am going to confront the situation before it becomes drastic. There is universal language you can use without drawing. Of course you would be stopped and facing the follower(s). Command voice was mentioned and very important; you aren't speaking and looking over your shoulder as you keep moving. Remember, you have already forseen possible danger(I have never had this happen to me @ least not in a nervous, dangerous sense).
Now, if 'keep moving' is a viable option then by all means do that. I am referring to when you have made a logical, informed decision you need to DO SOMETHING. Sometimes in life you need to do something or the anti can be upped! I firmly believe this.
If things continue, at least follower(s) know you aren't bluffing and/or possible consequences are coming. I, myself, am not worrying about a brandish law. I am protecting myself and my family- I can cross that bridge later and I have trust in my fellow citizens(to a point). I mean these guys stay silent and just keep coming. I am not running unless I am positive I can get away. I have two young kids and a wife too. I can't just cut and run anyways. If you ignore me that is another issue...most criminals will have a story, but it is possible they have you and reaching you in their sites.
*I believe my answer was the same on the 'fishing on the lake' thread a ways back(can't remember the title). ...the one where the man came out of the wilderness ansd just kept coming without saying anything
I have never had this happen to me, but if I was nervous, scared, take your pick @ vocabulary, I am going to confront the situation before it becomes drastic. There is universal language you can use without drawing. Of course you would be stopped and facing the follower(s). Command voice was mentioned and very important; you aren't speaking and looking over your shoulder as you keep moving. Remember, you have already forseen possible danger(I have never had this happen to me @ least not in a nervous, dangerous sense).
Now, if 'keep moving' is a viable option then by all means do that. I am referring to when you have made a logical, informed decision you need to DO SOMETHING. Sometimes in life you need to do something or the anti can be upped! I firmly believe this.
If things continue, at least follower(s) know you aren't bluffing and/or possible consequences are coming. I, myself, am not worrying about a brandish law. I am protecting myself and my family- I can cross that bridge later and I have trust in my fellow citizens(to a point
). I mean these guys stay silent and just keep coming. I am not running unless I am positive I can get away. I have two young kids and a wife too. I can't just cut and run anyways. If you ignore me that is another issue...most criminals will have a story, but it is possible they have you and reaching you in their sites.*I believe my answer was the same on the 'fishing on the lake' thread a ways back(can't remember the title). ...the one where the man came out of the wilderness ansd just kept coming without saying anything
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youngunz4life
New member
^or somewhat similar
all the best
and,
sorry about Cali...you do realize though if these guys mean business they move pretty darn quick right? not to mention there are two of them
all the best
and,
sorry about Cali...you do realize though if these guys mean business they move pretty darn quick right? not to mention there are two of them
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BlackFeather
New member
youngunz4life said:
Yes, I do. No need to feel bad, in Oregon I still won't carry often. It's not all that bad out here though, even in the local ghetto. I've never had any issues, no one in my family has unless they got themselves caught up in the gang crap.
They may move fast, but so do I. If they want something from me, they can have it. If it has to come to violence, I won't hesitate. To run. If I have to fight my way out, I will do that. It sounds silly to most gun people, because I'm a knife wielding lunatic to them.
youngunz4life
New member
scary possibility and/or consequence if you don't do something
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kelsey_Smith
look at the overview...this is what worries me(I have a son & daughter). I was reading a much more informative article, but I 'lost' it. On the above link, read the overview.
I remembered her name and googled it though(the article was written w/heavy descriptions on the target abduction as she got near her vehicle). It was written between her abduction date(june 2nd) and the day they found her body(june 7th). If I find it again, I'll post it. The theory of the car door hindering maneuver time might have some weight to it.
all the best+hopefully you're near OR so you can utilize your rights more when you wish but I guess Cali ain't that bad...some people seem to love it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kelsey_Smith
look at the overview...this is what worries me(I have a son & daughter). I was reading a much more informative article, but I 'lost' it. On the above link, read the overview.
I remembered her name and googled it though(the article was written w/heavy descriptions on the target abduction as she got near her vehicle). It was written between her abduction date(june 2nd) and the day they found her body(june 7th). If I find it again, I'll post it. The theory of the car door hindering maneuver time might have some weight to it.
all the best+hopefully you're near OR so you can utilize your rights more when you wish but I guess Cali ain't that bad...some people seem to love it.
The OP, Ruark, or anyone else, might not be as versed in martial arts as you might be so what you would do might not fit the OP.
The OP asked about “the draw point” so he’s speaking of one who is armed. Being armed puts the OP at an advantage, or at least equal capability.
Dwight made a good suggestion: Find somewhere to “hole up” and then see what develops, being prepared to assist the followers in their “development”. The situation of the OP is not one to “test” if you’re being followed. You ARE being followed whether the intent is harmless or harmful.
Yes, we may say “you shouldn’t have been there” or “use situational awareness”, but that doesn’t cut ice when you are already there.
It’s tough call but being armed does tenderize the situation.
We carry for one reason; self defense. So, defend yourself as needed and don’t be hesitant about it.
The OP asked about “the draw point” so he’s speaking of one who is armed. Being armed puts the OP at an advantage, or at least equal capability.
Dwight made a good suggestion: Find somewhere to “hole up” and then see what develops, being prepared to assist the followers in their “development”. The situation of the OP is not one to “test” if you’re being followed. You ARE being followed whether the intent is harmless or harmful.
Yes, we may say “you shouldn’t have been there” or “use situational awareness”, but that doesn’t cut ice when you are already there.
It’s tough call but being armed does tenderize the situation.
We carry for one reason; self defense. So, defend yourself as needed and don’t be hesitant about it.
Obambulate
New member
My little NAA would be in my hand as soon as we started walking to the car. No need to decide when to "draw", just when to shoot.
m&p45acp10+1
New member
My BUG is carried in my pocket. I would have my hand in mo pocket with a grip ready to draw if need be. My girlfriend has a key to my truck on her keyring, if I say to her you drive honey she knows what I mean. If I have to draw then I will.
BlackFeather
New member
ClayInTx said:
I completely agree. With the whole post, just didn't quote it all.
(OP) Thanks - yes, I'm just trying to pinpoint when drawing is justified, both practically and legally, in a situation where there's no CLEAR threat... yet. In Austin, for example, there are a few areas in town that are extremely popular for people - lots of night clubs, bars, etc. and being downtown, parking is inevitably several blocks away down some VERY dark streets. After last call (about 2 a.m.) people start trickling out to their cars.
But in any case, I was just wondering what your responses would be, even though the two guys aren't "doing" anything - just walking. After they turn left and right with you a few times, it becomes a 99% certainty that they are following you. But in some ways, it's like somebody driving back and forth past your house. It's apparently something fishy, but the local LEO will say there's nothing he can do because it's a public street. So can you run out and confront the driver with a gun? No.
From a legal standpoint, this is sort of the same situation. I'm thinking of displaying the gun WITHOUT pointing or brandishing it, if that's legally possible. Say, take it out and hold it up as if showing it to your friend, then put it back, as a subtle way of telling the followers, "I'm armed. Your call."
But in any case, I was just wondering what your responses would be, even though the two guys aren't "doing" anything - just walking. After they turn left and right with you a few times, it becomes a 99% certainty that they are following you. But in some ways, it's like somebody driving back and forth past your house. It's apparently something fishy, but the local LEO will say there's nothing he can do because it's a public street. So can you run out and confront the driver with a gun? No.
From a legal standpoint, this is sort of the same situation. I'm thinking of displaying the gun WITHOUT pointing or brandishing it, if that's legally possible. Say, take it out and hold it up as if showing it to your friend, then put it back, as a subtle way of telling the followers, "I'm armed. Your call."
This post assumes that you are armed and not so much a helpless victim waiting for death.
First, there can be no substitute for simple eye contact. Turn, make contact, and show no fear. then go about your business.
you've just put them on notice. You know they are there, you're not frightened, and you've given them fair warning that you aren't a sheep.
At that point, displaying a weapon isn't the right thing to do, but if you haven't turned them away, draw it, and hold it in concealment, and if you are confronted, let it be discretely visible. Brandishing is a vague legal term, but in general, before you're arrested, you'll have to have the thing "in action." Showing your hand on the butt of a pistol inside your jacket or wasteband isn't technically "brandishing."
This is my part. If you have been followed for a distance, or fully up to your vehicle or (private) destination, that act probably constitutes at least 50% of proof of intent to harm.
You've been followed in a predatory manner. You're confronted at close range. They were nonverbally warned off, and ignored it. If you see a weapon displayed of any sort, draw and show, and at that point, any, and I do mean any, aggressive moves justifies lethal force. Showing that they intend to attack an armed man justifies immediate defensive actions.
Of course, this will all be reviewed and held to the strictest standards of hindsight by the legal teams that will possibly be lined up with no intention in the world other than destroying your life because you behaved badly towards a couple of fellow model citizens.
First, there can be no substitute for simple eye contact. Turn, make contact, and show no fear. then go about your business.
you've just put them on notice. You know they are there, you're not frightened, and you've given them fair warning that you aren't a sheep.
At that point, displaying a weapon isn't the right thing to do, but if you haven't turned them away, draw it, and hold it in concealment, and if you are confronted, let it be discretely visible. Brandishing is a vague legal term, but in general, before you're arrested, you'll have to have the thing "in action." Showing your hand on the butt of a pistol inside your jacket or wasteband isn't technically "brandishing."
This is my part. If you have been followed for a distance, or fully up to your vehicle or (private) destination, that act probably constitutes at least 50% of proof of intent to harm.
You've been followed in a predatory manner. You're confronted at close range. They were nonverbally warned off, and ignored it. If you see a weapon displayed of any sort, draw and show, and at that point, any, and I do mean any, aggressive moves justifies lethal force. Showing that they intend to attack an armed man justifies immediate defensive actions.
Of course, this will all be reviewed and held to the strictest standards of hindsight by the legal teams that will possibly be lined up with no intention in the world other than destroying your life because you behaved badly towards a couple of fellow model citizens.
Ruark,
You raise a good question in the OP, but the context you recently mention indicates that a little "growth" or "maturity" is needed in your lifestyle choices.
Since you mention Austin, note that in Texas you cannot legally carry in a bar, nightclub or other 51% establishment. Therefore if you have been in one of these places, you have either gone there without a sidearm or you have carried there in defiance of the law.
You raise a good question in the OP, but the context you recently mention indicates that a little "growth" or "maturity" is needed in your lifestyle choices.
My first advice is to not be in the situation you referenced (late night/early morning, in the presence of large numbers of potential intoxicated folks, in dark streets, etc...) if you can avoid it due to the potential risks. If you cannot avoid it for some reason, others have posted some acceptable responses to employ.
Since you mention Austin, note that in Texas you cannot legally carry in a bar, nightclub or other 51% establishment. Therefore if you have been in one of these places, you have either gone there without a sidearm or you have carried there in defiance of the law.
BlackFeather
New member
TXHootus said:
Growth and maturity? So, it's not okay to go out and have a drink with friends on a Friday night because there's a higher chance of an altercation?
You're more likely to die in your bathroom after a couple drinks, or even sober. A mature person does whatever they please, within reason, responsibly. It doesn't mean they hide at home.