Dallas PD pulls the P320 from their Approved List.

[WVsig]

Don't forget their entry into the 1911 market. SIG eve managed to muck up a 100-year old design. They blamed the problems with the first generation on Caspian, who supplied the frames and slides. Curiously, Caspian subsequently sold the unused remainder of those slides and frames as kits, and I haven't heard of a single person who built a 1911 on those kits who had a problem.

Then, after a complete shut-down of several months, they brought out the second generation ... and still had problems. I think SIG 1911s generally function now, but are they on the third or fourth generation?

Yeah I owned a Gen 1 GSR which had to have a extractor replaced. Sig did that under warranty. The extractor was walking out. Other than that it was a tack driver and was extremely accurate. Caspian slide and frame with a Storm Lake barrel but Sig could not assemble them properly. These days they do seem to run better.

It is a lot like the P238 which was also a Colt design which Sig could not get right. Took years to get that one right but current production seems to be reliable.

 

[JJNA]

So.. buy Sig products only after a few years of introduction.

* I was bitten by this problem also. I bought the P226SAO Elite as soon as it came out - had to go back twice to Sig due to a defective safety (actually safety spring, which is a weak circular design).

 

[Laz]

the P238 which was also a Colt design

I don't understand why the P238 is considered a clone of the Mustang. They are both single-action .380s of a similar size that bear a resemblance to a small 1911 but their method of locking up couldn't be more different. A Mustang locks with locking lugs on top of the barrel locking into recesses in the slide ala 1911 or a Browning Hi Power. The P238 locks the breech into the slide like other Sigs, Ruger, Glock and many others. One reason the Mustang has a rounded slide and the Sig is squared off. They seem quite different to me and I think it's a major difference.

I prefer the Sig.

Not that I am disagreeing with the overall point. The P290 was another model that took time and revision to get right and was also hampered by too high an MSRP when first introduced.

 

[WVsig]

I don't understand why the P238 is considered a clone of the Mustang. They are both single-action .380s of a similar size that bear a resemblance to a small 1911 but their method of locking up couldn't be more different. A Mustang locks with locking lugs on top of the barrel locking into recesses in the slide ala 1911 or a Browning Hi Power. The P238 locks the breech into the slide like other Sigs, Ruger, Glock and many others. One reason the Mustang has a rounded slide and the Sig is squared off. They seem quite different to me and I think it's a major difference.

I prefer the Sig.

Not that I am disagreeing with the overall point. The P290 was another model that took time and revision to get right and was also hampered by too high an MSRP when first introduced.

It is considered a clone because it is my understanding that Sig bought the rights/ lic from Colt to make the P238. There are a few differences in the guns like the locking mechanism you mentioned but it is a clone based on the Colt.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

You seriously don't think this:

Sig P238:

is a clone of this?

Colt Mustang:

Just look at the locations and shapes of the controls. Even the grips interchange.

 

[Laz]

it is my understanding that Sig bought the rights/ lic from Colt

I have heard that many times also. I have also heard differently. I've never confirmed it either way. I'm glad they both are available, though.

 

[JohnKSa]

Sig has not had a clean rollout of a new product in a long time.

In all fairness, it's not that uncommon for new firearms to have teething problems. SIG does seem to have had more of their fair share of problems lately though.

It is considered a clone because it is my understanding that Sig bought the rights/ lic from Colt to make the P238.

I'm not an experts on patents and such, but my guess is that the design was old enough that it was no longer protected. Maybe someone with more knowledge on the topic will chime in.

 

[WVsig]

In all fairness, it's not that uncommon for new firearms to have teething problems. SIG does seem to have had more of their fair share of problems lately though.I'm not an experts on patents and such, but my guess is that the design was old enough that it was no longer protected. Maybe someone with more knowledge on the topic will chime in.

I am not sure it has ever been confirmed but again IIRC there was talk about Lics and even anpurchase on Colt tooling. Either way the P238 is based on the Colt which was based on and at one time produced by Star. There is some parts compatiblity between the guns.

As for Sig and new production products I cannot name one is the last 10 years that did not have teething problems beta tested by paying consumers.

 

[dgludwig]

There are a few differences in the guns like the locking mechanism you mentioned...

That's a pretty big difference, imo, and the only difference that could make a difference, especially when you consider everything else about the two pistols that could be changed (barrel, grips, sights, magazine, etc.) and not maintain the overall configuration and concept of the design and purpose of them both.

 

[seeker_two]

If anything, the 238/938 resembles the Star Firestar more than any other design.

 

[mr bolo]

this could easily happen to a police if they ever have a struggle with a suspect, or if the suspect tries to grab the officer's gun and it falls during the fight.

the officer could be holding the pistol and get knocked to the ground by a violent mob and the pistol could go off when it impacts on the pavement.

most people arent going to drop their gun in normal situations but it can happen during a confrontation.

 

[reynolds357]

If your weapon is out, you don't fight. If a perp physically attacks an officer with a drawn weapon, it is considered an attempt to disarm and the use of deadly force is the proper response.

 

[arquebus357]

Not sure if this was asked before...I couldn't find it.

But:

If the Dallas PD drop tested all available pistols in this class, how many others would fail ? It seems a bit unfair to Sig. No, I don't own one. I can't afford them.

I'll bet my little Star BM with it's inertia type firing pin would easily pass the test with the safety off.

 

[JoeSixpack]

It's hard to say, I mean I personally would love to it if someone did extensive drop tests on guns and I could browse the reports.. that would be awesome.

But.. you don't know what you don't know.. We know the p320 will go off if dropped right so thats all you can deal with at the here and now.

Look how long it took for someone to realize a problem with the Milpro & 24/7 line of guns from Taurus, I believe those lines was over 10 years old.
The Milpro I know had at least 3 generations and was popular.

Their drop failures was similar to the p320's (trigger actually being pulled to the rear)

 

[balance]

If your weapon is out, you don't fight. If a perp physically attacks an officer with a drawn weapon, it is considered an attempt to disarm and the use of deadly force is the proper response.

Police officers, like everyone else, are not to be thought of as being perfect in regards to handling firearms safely. There is a lot of data out there to support this, including that the only lawsuit I know of against Sig due to the P320 not being drop safe, is from a police officer who dropped a P320 and got shot in the leg.

I really don't understand the "I just won't drop my gun" comments on this thread. It has been stated plenty of times already that most people don't plan on dropping their guns, but it still happens anyway.

What exactly was Sig thinking, not putting a drop safety on the trigger? I too would question the experience of any manufacturer that decided to take out a safety feature used by practically all other competitive and comparative striker fired pistol designs, and then ends up with an unsafe pistol. Did they not know what that lever was there for on their competitor's pistols? Did they know to test that their design was safe, without that lever? Did they know how to test it?

As far as I'm concerned, there is no excuse, for any pistol in this era of modern pistols, to fire simply from a drop of two and a half feet. If a problem is found, it should be announced immediately, and should then be recalled immediately. From what I've seen and read on this topic, there are questions whether it was announced immediately after Sig was made aware of the issue, and it still has not been recalled yet.

I've seen people drop loaded pistols right in front of me before. At this point, I don't want to share a class, or even a range with someone who is using a Sig P320. I'm amazed that anyone, especially in a gun forum, wouldn't see how bad of an issue this is. It isn't going to hurt gun rights to get pistols that fire from a two and a half foot drop, off the streets. What is going to hurt them, is an innocent person getting shot for no reason by a pistol that could (and in my opinion, should) be considered unsafe. Not to mention what happens to the person or people getting shot.

It has already happened.

As to the people who are arguing that no pistol is drop safe, I ask, please, show me what it takes to set any other modern striker fired pistol off without pulling the trigger. I'll wait.

I wonder how many people, after seeing the videos of the P320 going off, have been trying to do the same with pistols that Sig would call their competition? Due to the lack of reports, I'd go out on a limb and assume that nobody else has been able to mimic the results on another design.

 

[JohnKSa]

If the Dallas PD drop tested all available pistols in this class, how many others would fail ? It seems a bit unfair to Sig. No, I don't own one. I can't afford them.

As far as I know, DPD did not drop test any guns at all. Their bulletin was not based on any testing that they performed.

Here's a video where some other roughly similar designs are drop tested to see if they share the same problem as the P320.

https://youtu.be/xNMuqZle_6Q

This doesn't provide a ton of information because although the designs are similar in some ways they are different in other ways. A specific drop angle that sets off one gun might not affect another one. The key to making guns drop safe is having the designer provide input on how inertia could compromise the gun's safety systems so that the manufacturer can do meaningful testing on that particular design.