DA/SA vs other

[RC20]

DA/SA suits me, so thats what I have.

Enjoy what you like I will enjoy what I like.

Like politics or religion, argue all day, you aren't going to convince me and I am not going to convince you, so I won't try (but you did ask so you get an answer, with no hopes of expecting you to say, hallelujah, I have been saved, its DA/SA from now on).

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

@tahoe2: Rock on, man. I can get behind that line of thinking. Like I said earlier if you can do it... then the design will serve you well.

@RC20: The "mission" behind this thread isn't to be an inquisition against DA/SA's. Even from my very first post I was trying to figure out for myself why people chose DA/SA over other action types. Just because I want to know why and I want to discuss the reasons people have to support their "why's" doesn't mean I want them to convert and doesn't mean I want people to convert me.

I wanted/want people to point out some advantages DA/SA has that I didn't take into account, didn't think of, or didn't think all the way through in order for me to learn about the action. I didn't want to dismiss it just at my first glance because it is a widely used design.

And, I believe I accomplished just what I set out to do. I displayed the pros for the design that I had heard, my counter-points to those, and then people came in with counter-points to mine, and new justifications for the design... the process repeated and a good discussion resulted.

I learned a lot about the mindset/usage of DA/SA's which was my objective.

I am sorry that the thread title is called DA/SA vs others. But that doesn't automatically mean a no-holds-barred fight to the death over which design is better. "Versus" is also used to communicate that you are contrasting two different things.

Anyway, thank you for your reply.

 

[DELL6380]

iMagUdspEllr - I agree with most of your replies. The one thing you have to remember is the world keeps creating better idiots. The negligent discharges I have witnessed over the years were all due to the shooter mishandling the guns with the exception of the glock. No argument there, They were clearly at fault.

The incident with the glock happened. My buddy was standing in the booth in front of me. Put the mag in, pulled back the slide and let go and it fired. When he contacted glock the next day they acknowledged that it could happen if something in the gun broke or malfunctioned and told him to send it in. We never tired to fire the gun after that so we don't know if there was something wrong but once it got to glock they said it was fine. He never fired it again after it was returned. It spooked him and that was it.

The issue with my buddy wanting to use the 1911. He couldn't get out of the habit of putting his finger on the trigger and squeezing when trying to flip off the safety... I found this alarming and made the decision that the 1911 was not safe for him to use. I've seen several people do this over the years.

As for the gun owners not shooting enough.. You are correct that is the fault of the shooter but the very real fact is these people out number those of us the shoot by a huge number. It's these individuals that need things like grip safeties, DAO, DA/SA or just simply heavy triggers to keep ND's from happening. I know dozens of guys that own guns and love to show them off. They're the first ones to show you their guns when you're over at their house but rarely ever shoot. A very good friend of mine owns 20+ guns including a couple of 1911's (has my old one as well). When I ask him to go shooting he always tells me he doesn't have time. In 15 yrs I've had him at the range about 10 times yet this is the same guy that claims he's ready to defend himself blah blah blah..

Every person's instinct when they pick up a gun is to put their finger on the trigger. It's natural.. It's wrong but it's natural and I see experienced shooters doing it all the time.. You want to see the biggest offenders of finger discipline you only need to watch the latest episode of cops or any of those other reality cop shows. Day after day you get to see our nations finest running down the street chasing some BG swinging his gun with his finger on the trigger..

If everyone was a responsible gun owner who took the time to train and get to know their weapon then I would be more inclined to agree that single action is better but we don't live in that world.

 

[peacefulgary]

Before letting him take it I ask him if he ever handled a SA before and he said sure.. We practiced a couple of draws, point, drop safety, shoot and every time he pulled the trigger when he flipped the safety off. This was a guy I had been shooting with for 10 yrs and had owned many guns in his life. Needless to say I sent him with my 226.

I would say that your friend needs to learn to keep his finger off the trigger till the target is in his sights and he is ready to shoot.
Giving him a DA/SA pistol will not make him any more safe.

I've seen a few negligent discharges in my life and four of those were 1911's where someone grabbed the gun and either dropped the safety and pulled the trigger or the safety wasn't on and fired.

Again, stop hanging around with folks who can't keep there finger off the trigger till they are prepared to shoot with the target in their sights.

One other was a single action revolver

The shooter must have been a complete novice to shooting or a complete idiot.
A DA/SA pistol cannot cure stupidity.

and the last was a Glock that fired when the slide was racked and finger off the trigger which supposedly can't happen yet I watched a friend do it. After a trip back to Glock they said the gun was fine. It was sold upon return.

Since the Glocks striker is not fully cocked till the trigger is being pulled I suspect that your friend did indeed pull the trigger.
Again, a DA/SA pistol is not a cure for poor trigger-finger discipline.

 

[fastbolt]

This is kind of like trying to justify like/dislike of transmission type in a car or truck. Both have advantages/disadvantages. Both have owners/drivers who have a preference for one or the other. Both work. Both are still offered in various vehicles, and there's some variety to be found.

I used to carry DA revolvers as issued & off-duty weapons. I also liked my single action Colt Combat Commander for off-duty. I could use both.

I eventually was given a traditional double action (DA/SA) pistol as an issued weapon, and over the course of many years I've owned quite a number of them. I never cared for the older DAO pistols, so I never wanted to own any.

I also own a fair number of DA & DAO revolvers, SA revolvers, SA pistols & pistols of various new "DAO-type" designs made by companies who produce plastic-framed pistols.

Personally, I've trained to safely & effectively use all of them. I "like" all of them. Discounting the SA revolvers, I can use any of the DA/DAO revolvers and various pistol designs for their intended purpose. Then again, as an instructor I've invested a fair number of years owning, carrying, using, training & practicing with them.

Suit yourself.

Being able to safely and effectively use any type of handgun for the role of dedicated defensive weapon is often a training issue, but it might also be a personal preference issue.

Some folks can't ever seem to get the knack for using a manual transmission in a vehicle. Maybe it's lack of attention and/or interest. Maybe it's a coordination issue. Maybe it's not something they want to deal with while otherwise engaged in safely driving. Maybe it's just a personal preference.

 

[robertsig]

I have a DA/SA SIG P229 with a trigger job that makes the DA pull around 7#. I love this gun. I have no safety to worry about. When I pull the trigger, it fires. It's also completely safe to leave the hammer down. Every pull after the first is SA, which is just gravy over DAO designs.

I fail to see why I made a bad choice. SIG quality, reliability and accuracy, with no safety to worry about.

I only need to use the decocker after I first load the mag & rack slide, or when I am done firing half-way through a mag (like at a range).

Given the choice of "safety" between messing with a frame-mounted safety OR just pulling a 7# trigger, I'll take the latter thank you. And for those who are paranoia challenged, I don't have to worry about cocked and locked.

 

[rogelk]

iMagUdspEllr, I think both the XD and Glock trigger can be inadvertantly be pulled under the right circumstances. I like the added security of a grip safety.

I haven't had my XDm long enough to worry about the striker channel cleaning. From what I gather it retains little crud and there are methods to clean the area without removal of the roll pin.

 

[peacefulgary]

I think both the XD and Glock trigger can be inadvertantly be pulled under the right circumstances.

Please elaborate.

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

@DELL6380: You are going to have to understand that this is the internet and while I could indeed take your word for it... I don't see how a Glock can fire upon closing the slide... the mechanics of that event are mind boggling. Unless someone more familiar with the Glock design can point out how that is possible I and everyone else on this forum will not believe you. I already explained how it is impossible for that to happen mechanically (unless it was broken... but you stated that it wasn't broken twice). It sounds like the guy who pulls the trigger when he flicks the safety off on a 1911 is the same guy who pulls the trigger when he closes the slide.

I would find these issues alarming with your buddy. However, you must realize the issue is with your buddy not the guns in his hand. I believe I could continue to be nice but I suspect that you are trolling and I will say this about your buddy, "You can't fix stupid."

Heavy triggers don't prevent NDs. Safeties prevent NDs. If you are inadvertently pulling the trigger it doesn't matter if it is 10 lbs or 5 lbs. It is not okay to half-way pull a 10 lb trigger while the gun isn't pointed at the target. If you are already in the habit of pulling the trigger when you aren't supposed to... that one day you are a little stronger than you thought will be the day you ND your gun. It is not okay to allow your finger inside the trigger guard, let alone touch the trigger, unless you are pointed down range. I don't believe anyone at the range would feel safe standing next to someone who kept half-way pulling their trigger while it wasn't pointed down range. I am highly confident that if the range officer noticed this he would be told to stop and/or politely escorted off the range. The range I go to has a rule that specifically states you may not place your trigger finger on the trigger unless the gun is pointed down range.

I don't care how much most people train or not, that is their fault if they don't and if they don't I don't believe that they are qualified to have a gun. You have to also think that in a self-defense situation novices that defend themselves might successfully stop the bad guy but they might also successfully kill innocent people in the process. Training and safety are mandatory.

It's these individuals that need things like grip safeties, DAO, DA/SA or just simply heavy triggers to keep ND's from happening.

I like how you completely omit safeties in your list. Safeties completely lock/deactivate the firing mechanism... but somehow DAO and DA/SAs are "safer" despite their ability to fire at any time. I have no problem with either design as far as safety... but your friends have problems with safety.

It's wrong but it's natural and I see experienced shooters doing it all the time.

Then you are not looking at experienced shooters. It did not take more than one range session for me to not put my finger on the trigger until I was ready to fire. It isn't hard. It didn't take a second trip for anyone I know to learn not to put their finger on the trigger. Maybe my dad is just a good teacher... I dunno... but, "Keep your finger straight until you are ready to fire." does not seem like a senior-level college concept in rocket science to grasp.

@fastbolt:

This is kind of like trying to justify like/dislike of transmission type in a car or truck.

Not really. An automatic allows someone to just hit the gas and get up to speed on a straight road faster than someone with a manual (unless the guy with the manual can change gears very quickly). But, a manual gives you more control over your power.

That is a distinct trade-off for distinct advantages.


Are bullets hitting the target?
DA/SA- Yes
DAO- Yes
Striker- Yes
SAO- Yes

Is there a safety?
DA/SA- No
DAO- No
Striker- No
SAO- Yes

Is there a consistent trigger pull?
DA/SA- No
DAO- Yes
Striker- Yes
SAO-Yes

It seems that DAO and strikers have all the bases covered. The DA/SA offers no distinct advantage other than not having a safety (the DAO and striker designs also have that same advantage). But, that is where I put that caveat in there later on in the thread, 'If you can shoot DA just as good as SA then it will serve you well.'

Personal preference is involved in anything. But, I am trying to suspend that issue in this thread.

robertsig: I stated that I hated the 10lb DA first pull on DA/SA guns. Your gun doesn't have that issue.

I fail to see why I made a bad choice.

You didn't. I didn't say anyone did. And, your gun in particular doesn't suffer as much from the issue I have with DA/SAs (10 lb first pull). Your transition is easier and your first pull is lighter. I would prefer the trigger to be the same every time still for the reasons I have already stated. But it is easier to go from 7 lbs to 4.5 lbs than it is to go from 10 lbs to 4.5 lbs.

@rogelk: I don't understand how the trigger can be inadvertently pulled if the gun is in a holster. If it isn't in the holster it is in your hand and thus, under your direct control.

Not much crud builds up in the firing pin/striker channel in my guns either but I still clean them regularly. I saw a guy pull the trigger on his XD(M) and it hang-fired due to burnt powder and excess lube in the striker channel. It worked great after he cleaned it. But, it probably wouldn't have happened if he didn't pour lube into the striker channel (I don't think the striker channel needs lube).

I just got my Sig Sauer P250. Unfortunately it uses a roll pin to retain the firing pin. I'm a little perturbed. But, at least it looks like a beefy roll pin. Hopefully it will survive cleanings.

 

[Rusty35]

Then you are not looking at experienced shooters. It did not take more than one range session for me to not put my finger on the trigger until I was ready to fire. It isn't hard. It didn't take a second trip for anyone I know to learn not to put their finger on the trigger. Maybe my dad is just a good teacher... I dunno... but, "Keep your finger straight until you are ready to fire." does not seem like a senior-level college concept in rocket science to grasp.

Looks like your a fast learner, shouldn't be an issue for you to master the DA/SA in one range session.

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

@Rusty35: I have two. I can't pull a 10lb DA trigger with the same accuracy as a 4.5 lb trigger, especially quickly, especially under stress. I wager you can't either. If you can, kudos. Not putting your finger on the trigger is a behavioral issue... not a finger length/strength issue.

 

[TailGator]

Heavy triggers don't prevent NDs.

True.

Safeties prevent NDs.

False. Good gun handling prevents NDs. Someone who can't be relied upon to follow basic safety rules can't be relied upon to activate a safety when appropriate, either. No mechanical device, including a thumb safety, is a good substitute for education, understanding, and care in the proper handling of firearms.

As far as your overall argument against DA/SA pistols: That arrangement gives a certain set of options that some people want. Other types of pistols give other sets of options that other people want. I'm glad we have the choices available. I have had revolvers and semis, with and without safeties, striker- and hammer-fired. They each had their role and their advantages. Viva la diferencia. End of my comments on the matter.

 

[MLeake]

I have various operating systems at home. Some are better for some situations than others.

Nice thing with DA/SA is that you don't have to worry about whether the safety might get knocked off during a typical day's exertions while in its holster. (I have one shoulder holster that seems to want to knock my 1911's off safe, so it no longer carries my 1911's.)

OTOH, such problems can be avoided through proper selection of support gear.

Other than that, it's all about training with what you use, and following safety rules.

That said, DA/SA is great for simplicity of training; DAO is even simpler; and I like SA for quick, accurate shooting.

 

[roaddog28]

Too me there is no trigger type that is better than the others. How safe one is with their gun is up to them to practice safe gun handling skills. I have two single action semi-autos, one DAO semiauto and one DA/SA semi-auto. I like them all. None of my semi-autos I use for self defense. I am from the revolver era and my self defense gun is a SA/DA revolver. I shoot DA only.
There is little time to think in a self defense situation. I prefer a gun with no safeties and a long trigger pull. Even then I don't put my finger on the trigger until I have acquired my target. My other semi-autos are fun to shoot at the range but none of them I would consider for self defense except my DAO. And the trigger pull is 8 to 10 lbs . But since it as a striker pistol I still prefer a revolver with a hammer.
Everybody has a preference so it doe not matter which one is the best. Lastly, if the person does not practice and becomes comfortable with the chosen handgun then this person will probably lose the gunfight.
I say chose the trigger type your most comfortable with and practice.
Regards,
Howard

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

@TailGator: I said that safeties prevent NDs because they completely deactivate the trigger. Nothing substitutes you being safe with the gun. DELL6380's stories shows that the gun can't compensate for the stupidity of the user. But, if someone pulls the trigger with the safety on the gun will not fire. If someone pulls the trigger and it is a 10lb DA it will still fire... it gives them more of an indication before it does... but it can still fire. That is what I meant. I am sorry for being unclear. I do not believe that NDs are the gun's fault... they are the user's fault.

@MLeake: Once again, DAOs and striker fire guns don't have safeties... not just DA/SA. And they have more consistent triggers (see my previous posts).

I know why someone would want to avoid having a safety. I don't understand why they would want DA/SA the most. I guess some people are good with it and some people just figure the first shot won't be that important or they will have time to thumb the hammer back. I really only accept the first reason.

@roaddog28:

Everybody has a preference so it doe not matter which one is the best.

That doesn't make any sense. I understand that people can use whatever they want just because they feel like it. That isn't what I am discussing. I am discussing why exactly someone would pick DA/SA over a DAO or a striker... all of them don't have safeties and the DAO and striker have more consistent trigger pulls and no transition. Once again... the DA/SA doesn't seem to matter if you can shoot DA and SA just the same... but I don't know anyone who is equally good with DA as SA (on the same gun on consecutive shots).

 

[MLeake]

iMagUdspEllr, I understand the difference between DAO and DA/SA. I also understand striker fired.

I own PX4's in DA/SA, but modified them to decocker, so they don't have safeties. I own a SIG P239 DAK, a couple S&W M&P45s, a 442, a Model 13 with bobbed hammer, etc.

I think I pointed out that DAO is simpler than DA/SA in my own post, so I'm not sure what you are correcting or amplifying.

As far as the concept of "throwing away" the first shot, I think you might need to work on your DA pull some more. I shot one of the PX4's at my last IDPA match. Three silhouettes at 7 yards, drill was to stand with back to the targets. At the timer, turn, draw, and double tap all three targets. Oddly enough, managed this in about four seconds, and had all hits in the -0 rings.

For some reason, the transition from DA to SA really wasn't a factor. Oh, wait, the reason is practice.

It doesn't matter what weapon system you use, you need to practice with whatever you carry. Again, each has certain advantages, and each has certain disadvantages.

For instance, the DAO/DAK offers pure simplicity. Point and pull; no difference between pulls. But those pulls tend to be longer and heavier.

The DA/SA has a longer, heavier first pull, with lighter follow-ups. The penalty is that it takes some practice to get used to that, and not "throw away" the first shot, or fire the second before the gun is back on target. The reward, though, is that the shorter reset and lighter pull allows faster, accurate fire on follow-up shots.

 

[mkk41]

Repeat strike? Pulling the trigger repeatedly on a dud will get you killed! Besides , what if it's a FTF? And you die hammering on an empty chamber.

We used to do 'dud' drills. Have your partner load your mags with 1 dud round somewhere in the mix. When ya got that click , ya jacked the slide without even thinking.

Never did like or understand the forward assist on an M-16 either. If a round sticks halfway into the chamber , no sense JAMMING it in 3/4 of the way.

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

@MLeake: I am pointing out that DAOs and striker fire guns don't have safeties... just like DA/SA but they have the same pull every time and they don't have a 10 lb DA pull with a transition to 4.5 lbs SA.

Its more complex and it takes more skill to accomplish the same thing. And, it is probably the third or fourth time that I have said, 'If you can shoot DA as good as SA then the DA/SA design will serve you well.'

The reason why I can't work on my DA trigger pull some more is because I have small hands (my fault) and so I can't reach DA triggers and pull them correctly. So I don't shoot very well with them (that is my fault and doesn't apply to other people). But, my point is that even if I could it is extra effort and extra skill required to do the same thing other designs accomplish without the extra effort and skill.

Also, good shooting. I can't do that with any of my guns. But, 7 yards isn't far and you weren't in a life or death situation. However, your skill level seems to indicate you would be able to do that even in a life or death situation. Good on you. I can't. But, I could probably get there faster and easier with a design other than DA/SA.

How about rewarding yourself with a DAO or striker fire pistol? Neither one has a safety and the striker fire pistol doesn't have a long trigger pull.

You do see what I am getting at right?

I'm not saying you have to. I'm saying that you don't have to put forth that kind of effort or accrue that amount of skill to accomplish the same goal.

@mkk41: I agree. However, repeat strike gives you options. If for some reason you can't clear your pistol at the moment and it didn't fire... you could at least have the option of hoping the second strike would allow the gun to fire. I believe tap, rack, bang is what you should always do... however... having options isn't bad. You can still tap, rack, bang a DAO or DA/SA (like you should).

 

[MLeake]

I have long fingers and long hands, so reach is rarely a problem - although smaller guns have been known to cause me some cramping... my smaller guns tend to have oversized grips, to fix the too-short-reach issue.

As far as that goes, if I want to shoot fast and accurately, I normally opt for one of my 1911's, my BHP, or my M&P's.

DA/SA isn't my preference, but I can see why some people do like it.

FWIW, the first pull being heavier doesn't seem to make nearly as much difference, if that trigger is smooth. A gritty, heavy first pull is a different animal.

But short and sweet the first time is kind of nice.

Edit: No, 7 yards isn't very long, but most IDPA courses of fire are at relatively shorter ranges. Time is where the pressure rolls in... in my club, I'm only upper middle of the pack. We have some blazing fast guys; most of them use 1911, M&P, or XD pistols, although some Glocks, CZs, and others show up, too.

That said, a DA trigger will work just fine at 25yds, too... but if you have short hands, and can't reach properly, that again is a whole different thing.

 

[roaddog28]

For some reason, the transition from DA to SA really wasn't a factor. Oh, wait, the reason is practice.

It doesn't matter what weapon system you use, you need to practice with whatever you carry. Again, each has certain advantages, and each has certain disadvantages.

That is my point. There is no superior trigger design. Each on has its good points and bad points. Practice is key.

The reason why I can't work on my DA trigger pull some more is because I have small hands (my fault) and so I can't reach DA triggers and pull them correctly. So I don't shoot very well with them (that is my fault and doesn't apply to other people). But, my point is that even if I could it is extra effort and extra skill required to do the same thing other designs accomplish without the extra effort and skill.

Having small hands is not reason enough why you can't shoot DA triggers good enough. I have small hands and consider myself one of the better double action shooters out there. My only limitation is my old eyes and vision. I became a good DA shooter because I have practice for years shooting double action. Its about trigger control. That takes patience and yes a lot of practice.

How about rewarding yourself with a DAO or striker fire pistol? Neither one has a safety and the striker fire pistol doesn't have a long trigger pull.

I think you better reconsider that statement. S&W has made a pistol for years that is DAO striker fire pistol. The pistol has a long trigger pull with a weight of 8 to 10 lbs. The pistol is a Sigma.

Howard