DA/SA vs other

[iMagUdspEllr]

I know this has been rehashed a bunch of times but I never end up seeing all of the points being addressed for both sides. I stand on the "against" side so I will list the pros below and my responses to them

I have seen people list the following pros for DA/SA:

1) Repeat strike capability

DAO can do the same thing. Also, most people seem to believe getting rid of the bad round (tap-rack-bang) is better than trying to hit the round over and over.


2) KISS

Glocks, M&Ps, XD(M)s, most revolvers, any DAO semi-auto, etc. are simple, too. (simpler even?)

3) Inherently safer than internal striker fired DAO

Striker fired guns aren't really DAO (they don't have repeat strike capability). Keeping your finger and other objects away from the trigger is your responsibility, not the gun's responsibility. And, I don't really think the best solution to preventing a trigger from being inadvertently pulled is making the trigger a little bit harder to pull. A safety is the logical solution (I mean... if you are incapable of keeping your finger and other objects out of the trigger guard until you are prepared to fire).

4) External hammer in an optimal position for action recognition and safety.

If the action is the same every time and/or you act like a gun is always loaded like you are supposed to then who needs "action recognition" especially for safety?

5) Gunfights take place <7 yards, generally. Gun fights involve trigger slapping and point shooting. DA pull doesn't interfere with either of these two techniques.

I dunno about this one. I would think that a 10lb DA pull would make point shooting even harder and you probably shouldn't be slapping your trigger unless you are a competitor with a 2lb trigger pull on your gun.

I have seen people point out all of these "pros" for the DA/SA. However, no one seems to address my responses to them.

Why do people like the DA/SA design still?

 

[elano]

I like the looks of the hammer. I like decocking levers. I don't like trigger safetys. I want my gun ready to use just witha pull of the trigger. Not having to flip a safety, and I do think a slightly heavier first pull is good for this. Also they look cool. Plus you get to play with the decocker after you rack the slide. Not to mention there is no half cocked striker under preload to go off if something breaks. When the hammer is down, nothing is going to make it fire. Plus they look cool

Different strokes.

 

[C0untZer0]

The HK P7 solved all these problems...

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

I like the looks of a hammer, too. I just can't stand DA/SA. Other types are fine (it feels the same every time so it is easier to tell that I'm being consistent).

I don't really like decocking levers... added complexity. But you are right... to each their own.

I prefer not to have a safety also. But why not a DAO (at least it won't be 10 lbs on the first then 4.5 lbs on the following... it will only be 5-7 lbs every time).

Everybody's contrast is always to striker fire guns. What about DAO revolvers? What about DAO semi-autos? (real ones... Sig P250 comes to mind... striker fire guns aren't DAO... they don't have repeat strike capability).

 

[Sevens]

I don't hate DA/SA, but there is something about them that I really don't like -- the transition from the first DA shot to all subsequent SA shots is real and not imagined. It's a helluva transition and if you've mastered it, you are good because it takes a lot of practice.

Obviously, you can cock it for the first shot, but in a quick draw and shoot, that's a BAD idea.

What we've seen was that the DA/SA concept was in full force for a period of time when the industry felt it was needed. It's not as popular now.

It doesn't make me hate them. I absolutely LOVE my 3rd Gen Smith & Wesson, but I don't love it because it's DA/SA. And my most recent purchase was specifically a SA only model (even though they also make many DA/SA) simply because I wanted the much more precise trigger pull that I'd get from the upgraded pistol.

DAO and striker fired is a design that works great in a particular role -- for me, that role is my primary EDC. But 95% of the guns I consider purchasing, lust over, and actually go out and buy are not for concealed carry. I have that covered already.

Mostly, I buy handguns because I love to shoot and own handguns. So, for me, I am looking for something that is enjoyable to shoot on the range. Because of that, I'm almost never looking at DAO, striker fired or DA/SA.

 

[sigcurious]

Can't say I prefer DA/SA over anything else (I do not have enough experience and/or guns yet), but I can say why I choose it. I figured with my first handgun, it would be nice to be able to practice both DA shots and SA shots.

 

[Stressfire]

I like DA/SA because you have the option to simply switch off the safety and go. Can also be done with SA, but there is an added step. That said, I tend to prefer SA for accuracy and on the range I often end up cocking the hammer on my DA/SAs for that purpose.

From a CHL perspective, I perpetually check the safety on my 1911 as it rides cocked & locked, I don't worry nearly as much over DA/SA with its heavy first trigger pull. If the manual safety goes off on a DA/SA it still has a heavy trigger to fall back on.

The above is for autos, for revolvers I definitely prefer SA, and actually shoot my best with SAA.

 

[pilpens]

Why DA/SA?
- SA because it is less difficult to be accurate with an SA trigger than DA.
- DA for the added safety, perceived or otherwise, that the long DA gives.

 

[peacefulgary]

I personally don't see the point of DA/SA pistols.

If you can't keep your finger off the trigger till you're ready to shoot then an additional six pounds or so of resistance isn't likely to make much difference.

And the trade off for that heavy first shot is a poor one in my opinion.

 

[drail]

A student of Jeff Cooper no doubt. That's OK, I'm one too.

 

[Newton24b]

only 3 models of plastic semi auto handguns have any ability to customize the grip. what do you do when you buy a plastic gun, that fits fine in the store, but when you get into the range you discover its an uncontrollable fiasco?

what do you do if your hands are unable to hold the semi auto exactly as the maker intended it to be held, and thus cant get the correct function of the slide when you actually need the thing?

what happens when the semi auto only wants to cycle that special 1.85 a round self defense ammo, and nothing else?

Seriously, you cannot overcome unlimited ammo choices just to replace a limited magazine capacity.
you can have a 3,000 dollar custom benchrifle rifle that can hit match sticks at 1,000 yards but unless you have ammo for it the guy carrying a pointy stick is going to make you his girlfriend.

 

[sigcurious]

^Newton I think you replied to the wrong post?

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

@Stressfire: I like SAs because you can switch the safety on and then go.

DA/SAs (if they have a safety) even after you take the safety off you have to deal with a heavy and long trigger pull and then transition to normal pulls for the rest of the magazine.

As far as for concealed purposes. I disagree. Even with a 1911 it should be in a holster. If it is in the holster securely then why would the safety be flicked off? Even if it is flicked off... what would depress the grip safety? Even if the grip safety is depressed then what would pull the trigger (it is in a holster).

Honestly a gun with a safety and a DA/SA action just puts far too many things in the way of actually getting of a fast, accurate shot. Pistols are close range weapons so those are the only ones you would be taking... you don't have the luxury of flipping off your safety AND thumbing the hammer back... and if you don't then more than likely your accuracy will suffer for that first DA shot (10lb trigger pull + adrenaline = shot way off target).

@pilpens: I understand. SA is fine... DA is fine... DA/SA is retarded. Pick one or the other. DA shots only seem to be particularly bad on DA/SA guns because people believe that the first trigger pull should be your safety (what?). If you get a DAO gun the trigger pull isn't 10lbs its usually between 5 and 7 lbs (which is equivalent to the standard trigger pull for modern popular pistols on the market). You still get the length of pull to help you "be safe" (why is your finger on the trigger anyway?) and repeat strike capability but you don't have to suffer through a 10 lb pull and then make a transition to 4.5 lbs. Its way better (in my opinion) to have the same pull every time regardless of other features (manual safety, DAO, SAO, etc.). DA/SA doesn't have a place. Its almost an oxymoron of action styles.

I still don't understand guys. If you want to be accurate you need to be consistent. Therefore you need to have the same trigger pull every time (length and weight). A trigger shouldn't be a safety. If you want a safety get a SAO. If you don't want a safety get a striker fire or DAO gun (and DAO doesn't mean 10lbs every shot... that might be how revolvers are... but you can find 5-7 lb DAO semi-autos and probably revolvers on the market). I see no benefits for the DA/SA system other than to make the shooter's task more difficult.

 

[daliff89]

i think it's a psychological choice for most people

i believe i proposed this same question before and got lots of replies that made little to no sense

like 'it's the same pull every time.... after the first one' and 'it's just easier to shoot'

as for the first one, something that's DAO is going to have the same pull every time

if you're at the range, i can DEFINITELY understand the SA/AD fascination, it's much easier to be accurate moving your finger 1/16" with 2lbs of resistance than it is with 1/2" of travel with 10lbs of resistance

but for carry, it doesn't really make much sense

and for the second one, the thing you shoot the most is going to be the easiest for you to shoot

say you've put 10,000 rounds total through all pistols you've shot

9,900 of them through a DAO pistol, 100 of them through a SA pistol, you're going to be much more proficient with the DAO pistol

 

[Slugthrower]

The DA/SA pistol is a hybrid and has strengths and weaknesses.

Repeat strike for those who are not highly trained in TRP. The typical shooter that owns a hand gun for a night stand gun and isn't a tactical obsessive kinda guy or regular shooter. This is why most people are better served with a revolver which is a manual DA/SA gun if you look at it in that light.

But all the kiddes today can't be caught dead with a geezer gun.

Duplilcates the DA trigger pull of a revolver, for people who may be
transitioning over to an auto pistol. The operation is the same for both guns save that after the first shot it automaticaly cocks itself till you decide to stop and lower the hammer.

Some guys use a revolver for a BUG and the similarity of operation requires little in the way conscious thought to remember to switch gears so to speak.

DA/SA pistols use a hammer with more inherent mass and therefore more inertia which will strike a primer with more force and lower that chance of light strikes in a dirty pistol.

When the pistol goes into SA mode it is far easier to shoot well with it than any true DAO pistol or even a striker fired action.

The fact that SA only has to trip a sear as opposed to drawing back a spring on the trigger and one that drives the firing pin, you can get a much better tuned trigger. This is the reason race guns that use the 1911 platform walk all over a Glock. In that open competition circle.

Glocks and any pistol that uses a spring driven striker isn't really a DOA in the traditional sense. Glock calls it a Safe Action and that is about what it really is. The design is it's own and others have copied it.

Now that I think about it...I used to have a toy pistol that worked on the same exact principle and shot little plastic discs. Recall loving the glow in the dark disks that you had to buy as extras. It was like a kids blaster pistol. So maybe Glock wasn't so inovative...

Striker fired actions strengths are also it's weakness. You can lighten it, but if you go a little too far it will become a malfunction machine from light strikes. Most of the draw weight is in the spring that drives the striker and what little mass the firing pin carries is going to be a detriment if you try to get a 2.5lb pull in such a gun. With a DAO you have the mass of the hammer to help drive the pin in less ideal conditions as well but are saddled with a heavy trigger.

It is a thin line that people ride when they modify a striker action to be as light as true SA in a defensive pistol. Even then you still have the take up to deal with whereas the SA will be short and crisp in comparison.

The pull weight may be a liabilty in terms of saftey for an SA. It will not be a factor of reliabilty in a defensive pistol that is an SA. This is where the heavy first pull is added insurance in a DA/SA. A pull of 7+ lbs really does take a consious thought to manipulate. Once you get under 4 lbs it can happen "by accident". When you discharge the pistol in self defense you will become "very aware".

The only real purpose of the DA pull is a safety measure against human error. It is a safety that doesn't stop the operation of the firearm but instead forces you to realize you are pulling that trigger. It gives you time to stop doing so, when you are tense and believe you are ready to destroy what is on the other end and in an instant decide to stop. An SA will not be forgiving. The striker action gives you that measure of safety that a DA does to a lesser degree. The guys that insist on the 3.5-2.5 lb trigger in a Glock for SD are a failure waiting to happen.

Strikers take away the superior aspects of an SA trigger. It is a compromise action. A very good one, but it is still a compromise. The same can be said of the DA/SA as well. It just depends on what kind of compromise you are willing to make. Some of us just are not going to be satisfied with a middle of the road trigger, which by design a striker fired action is.

The advantage of a striker pistol is that you can get away with less force applied from a "half cocked" action, when compared to a true DAO. This helps make for a lighter trigger pull on the similar striker action but in the end it will never match a good SA trigger pull no matter what they do to it.

Even the Cooper Disciples, will have to admit that even he recognized the greatness in the CZ pistol, though he reluctantly admitted this. He liked to call a DA/SA a crunchen ticker and in those days many of the DA/SA triggers and guns were not so good. The pure SA nature of the 1911 is superior for it's purpose in that same envelope.

The 1911 is very easy to be accurate with as the trigger is superb and the mechanics behind it are as well. This makes it a very good novice's pistol. On the other hand the very light and short stroke of the trigger, plus the need to have a manual safety, make it an expert's pistol for self defence and dangerous for a novice in that role. It is the primary reason that the DA/SA was developed.

Let's face it, most police and even many soldiers are not experts and need some idiot proofing in thier firearms. Having been a soldier I can testify to some rather stupid behaviors with firearms on their part. There is good reason why they are made to carry even a DA/SA M9 with an empty chamber in a full flap holster. What training they are given for pistols is rudimentary at best.

Then along comes Glock... it sets the police world on fire. The training curve becomes almost nil to go from a revolver to an auto and it begins. Then people say oh the police use it, it must be the best cause they use it. It is flawed thinking, but in the end it works since most LEOs look at their sidearms as a smelly piece of oily metal that is just part of the job. This translates well to the general public as most will buy a gun shoot a few boxes of ammo and then toss it in a night stand or similar. So it is that strikers become popular and sell well.

The striker action learning curve is smaller and it is great to start out with until you hit the limits of the design. Overall most pistols that use it do so with good results, it just isn't as good as a SA pistol and that is where the DA/SA beats it out, but only when using SA mode.

The saying goes. If I have to explain it to you, you won't understand. You must experience it.

I really like my PM9, but it still requires more effort to be accurate compared to the FN. There is room in the world for both.

I can even tolerate that evil 1911 that always wants to show it's pretty face time and again like some kind of Siren in a Sea of Firearms too.

Can't we all just get along?

 

[pendennis]

It just seems like the DA/SA overcomplicates the function.

I'm a believer in the 1911 and the Browning HP35 types. I prefer frame mounted safeties, and I dislike slide mounts.

The problem, as I've seen it, are the two distinct trigger pulls. My mind set, over the years is to flip off the thumb safety, and start the trigger pull. The long first pull tends to pull me off target.

I'm also not a fan of the Glock-type trigger (I've owned and sold two). It seems like the Glock is the solution to a nonexistent problem.

I'm so used to carrying a 1911 in condition one, that the DA/SA and Glock types are just foreign in concept.

But the above are my experiences and likes/dislikes.

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

@Slugthrower: I really appreciate your thorough reply.

Repeat strike for those who are not highly trained in TRP. The typical shooter that owns a hand gun for a night stand gun and isn't a tactical obsessive kinda guy or regular shooter. This is why most people are better served with a revolver which is a manual DA/SA gun if you look at it in that light.

DAO guns have repeat strike capability (and they can be found with more reasonable trigger pull weights than 10 lbs). I am aware that people don't really train with their gun like they should. But, that isn't really an excuse. That is a failure on the user's part and not something a weapon should try to (poorly) compensate for (God forbid the bad round simply couldn't go off even after repeat strikes). I think revolvers are great. It is the same DA trigger pull every time, unless you decide to manually change it from DA to SA... and then it resets to DA unless you manually decide to change to SA again. That way if you are shooting rapidly it is always going to be DA... and if you are on the range having fun you can choose to shoot SA if you want. However, normally revolvers have 10-12 lb DA trigger pulls (unless you get a trigger job) which is a real pain when it comes to accuracy... and with between 5-8 shots that doesn't inspire confidence (aside from the power of the .357 magnum and .44 magnum calibers ).

DA/SA pistols use a hammer with more inherent mass and therefore more inertia which will strike a primer with more force and lower that chance of light strikes in a dirty pistol.

Anything with a hammer has this benefit. Not just DA/SA guns. I know what you are getting at... and I agree. But why will the pistol be dirty if you are using it to protect your life? I am definitely on the side of the gun should be able to pass a torture test and function reliably at any point in time. But... Glocks don't seem to have any problems setting rounds off even when extremely dirty and they do not have hammers.

I agree. Glocks do not have excellent triggers. You can't lighten them to 2lbs (I don't like having triggers that light... I prefer 4-5 lbs... but that is me). However, if you don't lighten the trigger pull to 2 lbs the striker will not have difficulty setting off rounds even with a dirty firing pin channel and hard primers. I disagree with it being a "thin line". I don't see people walking around with 2lb trigger pulls even at the range. I'm sure it is common in competition shooting... but that is kinda another world.

My Colt Python has a "hair-trigger". My dad bought it from a cop before he gave it to me. I guess the hair-brained department gunsmith did a trigger job on the guy before my dad bought it. The SA trigger pull sits around 2 lbs and the DA sits around 4 lbs. Both modes give me light primer strikes all the time, its an old gun and it has been improperly modified, but the point remains that if you have too light of a trigger pull even with a hammer and a clean gun there can still be failures to fire.

I don't believe that a striker-fire pistol is a "compromise" of any sort. It is a SA trigger with no safety to forget about (not that I think that has a high chance of happening if you actually train with your weapon) with a moderate trigger pull instead of an immensely heavy trigger pull. It won't "beat" a 1911 SA trigger pull. But, a 1911 has a safety so it is a different class of trigger anyway. I mean... we are talking about accuracy. Triggers affect accuracy. However, you can smooth out a striker trigger. And, many people have proven the accuracy of a striker pistol even while firing rapidly. So I see no compromise. I see SA, DA, DA/SA, safety, no safety, etc. Its your responsibility to break the trigger... and striker triggers aren't going to keep anyone from being deadly accurate (competition Glock shooters with stock Glocks have proven this).

The pull weight may be a liabilty in terms of saftey for an SA. It will not be a factor of reliabilty in a defensive pistol that is an SA. This is where the heavy first pull is added insurance in a DA/SA. A pull of 7+ lbs really does take a consious thought to manipulate. Once you get under 4 lbs it can happen "by accident". When you discharge the pistol in self defense you will become "very aware".

Don't put your finger inside the trigger guard... let alone on the trigger... let alone pulling the trigger nearly to the break-point until you have made the conscious decision to fire the weapon. I understand that under stress you might sympathetically clench the gun and thus the trigger when your life is in danger... but training is everything. And, if you accidentally fire at someone trying to take your life is that a bad thing? In court, yes. But, that doesn't mean anything. In court you tell them you intended every shot.

And, no, you don't want to accidentally hit a bystander. However, good trigger finger discipline (and practicing trigger finger discipline) combined with the close ranges that a defensive situation will normally take place at will greatly help prevent you from hitting an innocent person. Also, on the flip side, I believe a long 10 lb DA trigger pull combined with adrenaline will increase the chances of throwing your shot off and hitting an innocent person even when you do decide to pull the trigger (which seems like the worse alternative to me).

The advantage of a striker pistol is that you can get away with less force applied from a "half cocked" action, when compared to a true DAO. This helps make for a lighter trigger pull on the similar striker action but in the end it will never match a good SA trigger pull no matter what they do to it.

You can get DAO pistols with 5-7 lb trigger pulls... which is around what Glocks, XDs, and M&Ps advertise for their trigger pulls. So... yeah. And, the striker pistols triggers aren't that bad (they are even good?... once again good is different than best in the world...but not bad) and can be easily smoothed by even novice gun owners.

A DA/SA gun "beats" a striker gun in SA mode. But that is a disclaimer right off the bat. "After the first shot it is good." Yeah... but what about the first shot? That statement doesn't make any sense.

The striker-pistol learning curve is small. Yes, that isn't a bad thing. Simpler is better. Really a DAO semi-auto pistol has a low learning curve too. I lump them both in the same category. No safety... same pull every time... the DAO does have the repeat strike capability, though.

The saying goes. If I have to explain it to you, you won't understand. You must experience it.

I have two DA/SA guns. I'm not a fan of DA/SA.

I'm thinking about getting a DAO gun, Sig Sauer P250. ~6lb trigger pull, feels like a 4 lb trigger, breaks like a glass rod (unbelievable for a $400 gun), fits like a glove, repeat strike capability, no safety. Its pretty sweet.

I still don't understand the DA/SA thing. But I really appreciate your thorough response. I like to have thorough discussions with people, especially about guns. But, so few people in the gun community like to do so. I thank you for your reply, once again.

@pendennis: The Glock and other striker-fire pistols are not meant to be a solution to a problem. They are meant to be guns without manual safeties that don't have ridiculously heavy trigger pulls like revolvers in DA. Not having a safety takes a step out of firing a weapon. I believe it is an irrelevant step because the safety is deactivated while drawing before the gun is on target anyway... so there is no true advantage to not having a safety other than it is technically simpler and there is one less thing that can fail (but if it does... its your fault).

 

[Slugthrower]

"I don't believe that a striker-fire pistol is a "compromise" of any sort. It is a SA trigger with no safety to forget about (not that I think that has a high chance of happening if you actually train with your weapon) with a moderate trigger pull instead of an immensely heavy trigger pull.", iMagUdspEllr.
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A striker fired pistol is not a SA trigger, though it may do a reasonable immitation. By definition a single action does only one thing. That one thing is to release the sear that holds back a preloaded spring driven hammer.

A DA pistol is by definition an action type that does two things. The first is that it raises a hammer against a spring and begins loading kinetic energy into the system. The second is the same action what a SA does. It releases the sear.

The striker action requires you to draw back the spring until it reaches the release point which is more akin to a double action, but it has no hammer to speak of or a sear to trip in the traditional sense. Until they make a striker fired pisol that holds the striker in a completely compressed and ready state, which only has to trip a sear it can in no way be considered an single action. At best it is a light double action, with a shorter stroke and a need to be reset like a SA, should it misfire.

It is a compromise in that you have a trigger stroke, no matter how light, requiring you to concentrate on keeping your sight picture till you can reach the point of discharge. It is easier than a true DA from a weight standpoint and limits any tendency to pull the muzzle off target. I would say that is training issue. If you are manipulating the trigger properly with a proper grip in a properly fitting pistol it will not pull off target even if it is a bit heavier.

I agree you should train with your pistol of choice. I believe like you in that a passive safety in the case of the striker action eliminates the need for a manual safety, which can be fumbled or even interfere with the operation of the pistol in a rare blue moon way. A draw back to the SA auto pistol is that manual safety. For most people they are not going to train and a long heavy pull is smart for them and yes it makes accuracy suffer.

Anyone who uses a double action revolver will have the very same problem, which isn't really a problem if you train to it. Yes is seems an odd system for those that didn't grow up using DAs before the striker fired pistol was even thought of in the gun world.

I fully understand the concept of trigger discipline. The key to my statment is that you thought you were ready to destroy what was on the other end of the pistol and in the very last instant realize you do not. You can train yourself to keep that finger outside the trigger guard till you are on the target. Your instincts are going to drive you to put your finger on that trigger when you percieve an imminent danger approaching. Yes it is unsafe, people will do this anyway, especially the ones that are not going to train as they should. It is that possiblty that causes compromise actions to be devised. Otherwise a SA trigger would be the answer and nothing else would need to be considered.

I promise you there are police officers out there who wished they had kept their finger outside of the trigger guard on their Glock and in hind sight would have been able to prevent their ND if only the trigger was that little bit heavier to pull with a little longer stroke. I am not saying that it is common, just that it occurs.

The DAO pistols that are coming into use now are a much better option for self defense as accuracy isn't so important at short ranges and the differences aren't that great up close. The problem is that if you decide to use it outside that role it does begin to show it's flaws. That option to have a very nice trigger break of a true SA is why the DA/SA still survives.

It would be nice to have dedicated pistols for every percieved task. The reality is that most people have limited funds, limited interest, limited training and will to train, but also want a range gun that is easy to be accurate with and one that is capable of multiple roles with very few drawbacks and one that is forgiving of thier inattention to details.

If the striker fired pistol solved that problem the firearms manufacturers wouldn't still be trying to figure out a way to make a self defense oriented pistol that gives a greater margin of safety than what the striker action type provides, while still allowing it to be relatively easy to shoot well.

There are striker actions, such as the PM9, that are near perfect immitations of a very good DA trigger pull in a revolver and have a pull that seems lighter.

The fact that the Safe Action in a Glock seems to behave as if it was a SA , even thought it isn't, is why it is nearly as dangerous in lesser trained hands as an 1911 without a manual safety in those same hands. Hence the notion of an idiot proofed pistol and a continuing search for the perfect trigger action.

It is a good thing to express our preferences and debate the pros and cons of a particlar system. It helps to increase our knowledge base and improve the entire community as a whole.

It is the problem of Ego that gets in the way quite often. We as firearms enthusiasts tend to be a "Manly" bunch and don't take well to another person challenging our notions.

The funny thing is that being emotionaly sensitve isn't so "manly" and that is why guys tend to avoid the conversations, to avoid turning them into fights. It is a lack of self control and civility on the part of the individual. That lack of "manliness" to accept that we might need to change perspective on things we used to think were written in stone. Talk about oxymoronic. Making light of it sometimes is a good thing to do, just to break the tension.

Anyway, I can appreciate your point of view in regard to the DA/SA and for the most part you are head on with your perception of what it is and isn't. The firearms get better as we go, just that some of us get stuck in what works for us from what really is another century.

Some guys like to drive a stick shift. Some like an automatic transmission and accept the weakness of the design from a racing perspective. Others want both and the manufacturers try to provide both with transmissions that can act just like a stick on demand and yet can revert to the automatic's behavior when not trying to be so frisky. Then there is the extremist who wants an air shifted transmission and it opens up a can rabid radioactive super mutant worms bent on the ability to go from 0-60 in 0.5 seconds and knock the earth off it's axis with the god like torque... or is that horse power... hmmm?

 

[PawPaw]

I understand DA/SA, I've been using the concept for years with my SW revolvers. Sometimes I want the long trigger pull, sometimes I want to thumb-cock the hammer.

I don't understand DAO. If it is double action only, then it only has one action and it's a single action, regardless of how long you've got to pull the trigger. This verdamned M&P 45 that I carry has only one way to make it go boom. It's a single action. My son's Glock 19 has only one way to make it go boom. It's also a single action. Yeah, they've both got strikers, but there's only one way to get the bullet out of the dangerous end.

Of course, I'm a curmudgeonly sort and prone to oversimplify things.

 

[Sevens]

Actually, you are making up your own definition for a term that has LONG served this industry and it's not at all correct.

Single action means that it does one thing -- trip the sear. Double action means that it does two things -- it loads the hammer AND trips the sear. Double action revolvers actually do more than two things.

No matter how you feel about it, it's still an industry standard and you may interject your opinion in to it, but that doesn't make it correct.

You could say that a fully automatic rifle isn't fully automatic at all because you have to hold it, point it, load it, pull the trigger, etc. But your definition of "not fully automatic" would be nothing beyond a cute little quip in a post on a forum and it would simply be tossed by the industry as being, well, useless.

And yeah, we know that a .44 Magnum isn't also, but we don't go around asking for "four twenty nine magnum ammo, please" just because we think we've got it all figured out.

It's a standard. If you really want to simplify things, use the industry standard.