Curiosity, .410 velocity
- Thread starter 105kw
- Start date
and your Rossi is ..what? shotgun? handgun? .410??
Ok, so??
The OP question was about .410 velocity, fired out of a Judge or Governor. These are .45 caliber handguns, which just happen to be firing .410 shotshells. Velocity and performance of a .410 load, from a .410 is not relevant.
Clearly the .410 wads upset enough to seal the bore adequately, and enough to impart spin to the shot column but I think there would be a measurable difference if they were being fired from a .410 bore and not a .45 bore. Perhaps not a significant difference, but until someone measures both we don't know.
I don't have a .410 pistol, I have a .45 pistol I can shoot .410 shells from. I have a .410 shotgun, but I'm not going to spend the money, time and effort to get permission from Uncle Sam to cut the barrel short, just to answer the question, and even if I did, it wouldn't have a cylinder gap so its still not an apples to apples comparison.
Actually it is because the chamber size is essentially the same. You have A 410 CHAMBER that you can put 45's into.
No you have a 410 chambered pistol that you can fire 45 Colts out of. I can do the same with my Marlin 1895 45/70. BFD. BTDT, I just don't have the recovered projectiles to back up my assertions from those tests since I was just after proof of concept.
Point is that some buck shot is softer than others. The really soft stuff will have the middle to back pellets turn into semi- to flat disks. This will affect patterns at increasing distances as well as retained energy.
I've tried to introduce my personal experience in this realm based on real life info as well as past documented info into the conversation to educate people. It seems that 'someone' has a bone to pick with me on this subject. Let me make this one point clear: The flattening of pellets happens during the initial acceleration of the pellets. That is why the rear pellet is the MOST deformed with less deformation occuring up the line. It has to do with the laws of physics.
From a performance PoV it actually is. Patterns are patterns. If you have soft shot the patterns will blow more than hard shot. Bird shot out of a rifled bore will be dougnut hole PDQ. Buckshot without a wall encompassing wad will vary depending on obturation. Softer shot will obturate, copper plated hard shot will do so much less.
Want your best bet sight unseen on a tight pattern? S&B 00Buck 3" the 5 pellets will be spin stabilzed because they are in a wall encompassing wad that will grip the pellets as the flatten. Those disks will be spin stabilized which history tells us will result in tighter patterns until they enter flesh. Then all bets are off.
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I have to disagree with that. They are .45 caliber guns. The .410 shell is a subcaliber munition that can be fired out of the .45 caliber gun.
Judge, Governor, T/C Contender these are .45 caliber guns. They are identified as such by the makers, and recognized as .45 caliber in our legal record keeping system. The FFL at the gun shop logs them into their books as .45 cal pistols. They may log them as .45/410 but they don't log them as .410, because, they aren't. ( for this info I checked with people I know who work in a gunshop)
They are NOT .410 guns you can fire a .45 out of. They have .45 caliber barrels, NOT .410.
Pretty sure the chambers are .410 chambers because a .410 is too long to fit in a standard .45Colt chamber.
The bore diameter being larger might make a difference in velocity if there's not a good seal, but typically wads/shotcups are flexible plastic and should seal even with a slightly larger bore. Dunno. I have a hard time believing that the slight difference in bore diameter is going to be a big factor given that the wad should expand to provide a good seal.
The bore diameter being larger might make a difference in velocity if there's not a good seal, but typically wads/shotcups are flexible plastic and should seal even with a slightly larger bore. Dunno. I have a hard time believing that the slight difference in bore diameter is going to be a big factor given that the wad should expand to provide a good seal.
Not exactly. They can't be. Think about it, for a moment. Look at the dimensions of the rounds.
.45 Colt is spec'd to be
.480" at the mouth, and straight, so .480" at the base.
Rim dia is .512"
The case is 1.285" and the loaded length (w/bullet) is 1.600"
The .410 case is spec'd to be
Neck diameter
.455 in (11.6 mm) (plastic)
Base diameter
.470 in (11.9 mm)
Rim diameter
.535 in (13.6 mm)
Factory 2.5" and 3" slug rounds I just measured are a bit below nominal length, the 2.5" going 2.24" (Remington) and the 3" being 2.66". (Winchester)
SO, other than length and rim diameter, the .410 is smaller than the .45 Colt.
IN a revolver cylinder, where the rims ae not recessed like the old S&W magnums, if the chamber spacing in the cylinder allows the room, the slightly larger diameter rim of the .410 is of no consequence.
In a gun like the Contender it might mean having to cut the rim recess in the barrel a bit larger in diameter to accommodate the .410 rim, but .45 Colt brass won't care about that.
Simply put, in order to get a .45 Colt round into the chamber, it has to be a .45 Colt chamber. The chamber can be LONGER than that, like the .454 Casull, but it has to be the same diameter to fit and properly support the .45 Colt case.
Moving the beginning of the rifling an inch or so further down the barrel so the long .410 case isn't jammed into the rifling (being .45cal outside dimentions) does not make the chamber a .410 chamber. Its still a .45 Colt chamber.
With a revolver you don't need to move the rifling leade, just have a long enough cylinder to take the .410 shell.
Take a .410 shotgun, any one, break action, bolt action, pump lever, semi, any of them marked .410. They have chambers and barrels made for the .410 shell. You CANNOT get a .45 Colt round into the chamber. Its just too "fat" for the .410 chamber. (and if you can, your .410 is grossly out of spec)
TO be clear, the Judge, Governor, T/C Contender and any other .45/410 guns are NOT .410s. They are .45 caliber guns that have been slightly modified compared to .45 Colt only guns, to allow the use of the subcaliber .410 shells.
By exactly the same logic, take any traditional .45Colt firearm and try to chamber a .410. It won't fit, and if it does, your chamber is grossly out of spec for length.
I'll accept that it's not a .410 chamber. But by the same test criteria you espouse, it's also not a .45 Colt chamber. Let's call it a hybrid chamber.
Other than speculation, is there a good reason to believe that the differences in chamber and bore size will make any significant different in the velocity of a shotshell loading? If so, what is the expectation--lower or higher?
That's not entirely true: I just loaded and closed the actions on both my Rossi and Verona 410's with a 454 Casull.
Edit to add link to video of it being done. You should not fire a 454 from a 410. FoolTube Video
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Cheapshooter
New member
Actually I've linked to his webpage videos several times. He does an awesome job of explaining the good, bad, and ugly of the Judge. Also in dispelling most of the myths.
OK, I"ve been doing a little measuring, though not with my .410 shotgun, as its packed away and I'm not digging it out.
Since you've done it, with your gun(s) I'd say we are in a situation where what we have in our hands is not quite exactly the same as the published specs, and so I will amend my position to say "By the spec, You should not be able to put a .45 Colt into a .410 chamber.
And I do realize the published specs are generally the maximum allowable size, and that makers ammo is UNDER those specs by some amount, and quite possibly some chambers are oversize.
There is some food for thought in this. I need to do a bit more research, and get the .410 chamber specs to be more sure of certain things, but for now, consider these points,
Where does the chamber end? and the barrel begin? And, can it be different places in different guns?
Next, I don't think being able to shove a smaller pipe inside a larger one past a certain point means the larger pipe is out of spec, necessarily. So, I won't automatically agree about a .45 Colt chamber being out of spec, for length, if a .410 shell will go in. There's a question I need answered in order to form a more solid opinion.
My .45 Colt Rugers all have a "lip" or "step" at the front of the chamber. This step prevents .410 shells from going all the way in (in MY guns). I removed the cylinder of a Blackhawk and a Vaquero, and both the Remington and Winchester .410 shells I have dropped right in (and a rather sloppy fit) and were stopped by the step at the front of the chamber. If that step were not there, the .410 shells would enter full length.
So here's a question, is that "step" a required feature of the chamber specs? Could it be something required today by SAAMI but in the past was something left to the desire of each individual maker?
I know that in the past, some guns (usually the cheaper .38s but not exclusive to them) didn't put a step or ledge at the front of the chamber, the cylinders were bored straight through.
IF a .45 Colt chamber doesn't have that ledge, (and the action allows for the length) then a .410 shell will go right in, stopping on its rim or before, if contacts the rifling.
So, it would seem that the primary modification to a .45 Colt chamber is making it without the ledge at the front, and ensuring the .410 case isn't in the rifling, which would be a mod of the barrel, not the chamber.
I think it reasonable, pending clarification of some terms, we could consider the .45/410 a "hybrid" chamber, for now. But, I do hold that it is not a .410 chamber as found in .410 shotguns.
My other point involves the "fit" of .410 chambers in .410 shotguns.
However, I belatedly realize how we are drifting off the OP topic into details not directly related to the question. I've spoken to him, and he's satisfied with the answers he got about velocity from the Judge/Governor, so I think if we want to continue discussing the nuances of .45/410 chambers, we should do it in its own thread.
So, if'n y'all wanna play, I'll start one, or you can, if you get to it before I do.
Since you've done it, with your gun(s) I'd say we are in a situation where what we have in our hands is not quite exactly the same as the published specs, and so I will amend my position to say "By the spec, You should not be able to put a .45 Colt into a .410 chamber.
And I do realize the published specs are generally the maximum allowable size, and that makers ammo is UNDER those specs by some amount, and quite possibly some chambers are oversize.
There is some food for thought in this. I need to do a bit more research, and get the .410 chamber specs to be more sure of certain things, but for now, consider these points,
Where does the chamber end? and the barrel begin? And, can it be different places in different guns?
Next, I don't think being able to shove a smaller pipe inside a larger one past a certain point means the larger pipe is out of spec, necessarily. So, I won't automatically agree about a .45 Colt chamber being out of spec, for length, if a .410 shell will go in. There's a question I need answered in order to form a more solid opinion.
My .45 Colt Rugers all have a "lip" or "step" at the front of the chamber. This step prevents .410 shells from going all the way in (in MY guns). I removed the cylinder of a Blackhawk and a Vaquero, and both the Remington and Winchester .410 shells I have dropped right in (and a rather sloppy fit) and were stopped by the step at the front of the chamber. If that step were not there, the .410 shells would enter full length.
So here's a question, is that "step" a required feature of the chamber specs? Could it be something required today by SAAMI but in the past was something left to the desire of each individual maker?
I know that in the past, some guns (usually the cheaper .38s but not exclusive to them) didn't put a step or ledge at the front of the chamber, the cylinders were bored straight through.
IF a .45 Colt chamber doesn't have that ledge, (and the action allows for the length) then a .410 shell will go right in, stopping on its rim or before, if contacts the rifling.
So, it would seem that the primary modification to a .45 Colt chamber is making it without the ledge at the front, and ensuring the .410 case isn't in the rifling, which would be a mod of the barrel, not the chamber.
I think it reasonable, pending clarification of some terms, we could consider the .45/410 a "hybrid" chamber, for now. But, I do hold that it is not a .410 chamber as found in .410 shotguns.
My other point involves the "fit" of .410 chambers in .410 shotguns.
However, I belatedly realize how we are drifting off the OP topic into details not directly related to the question. I've spoken to him, and he's satisfied with the answers he got about velocity from the Judge/Governor, so I think if we want to continue discussing the nuances of .45/410 chambers, we should do it in its own thread.
So, if'n y'all wanna play, I'll start one, or you can, if you get to it before I do.
Best 410 revolver velocity will be the newer purpose built loads.
And the best of those seems to be federal 410 handgun.
Remember self defense happens fast and often at arm's length. Much past that is it self defense?
Making multiple wound channels per trigger pull has its merits.
At five yards even seven or ten yards, federal seems to group and penetrate well.
And the best of those seems to be federal 410 handgun.
Remember self defense happens fast and often at arm's length. Much past that is it self defense?
Making multiple wound channels per trigger pull has its merits.
At five yards even seven or ten yards, federal seems to group and penetrate well.
TruthTellers
New member
That ledge is where the diameter of the chamber narrows down from being just larger than the OD of the case to the OD of the bullet so the gases can't blow by the bullet and cause leading issues and decreases in pressure.OK, I"ve been doing a little measuring, though not with my .410 shotgun, as its packed away and I'm not digging it out.
Since you've done it, with your gun(s) I'd say we are in a situation where what we have in our hands is not quite exactly the same as the published specs, and so I will amend my position to say "By the spec, You should not be able to put a .45 Colt into a .410 chamber.
And I do realize the published specs are generally the maximum allowable size, and that makers ammo is UNDER those specs by some amount, and quite possibly some chambers are oversize.
There is some food for thought in this. I need to do a bit more research, and get the .410 chamber specs to be more sure of certain things, but for now, consider these points,
Where does the chamber end? and the barrel begin? And, can it be different places in different guns?
Next, I don't think being able to shove a smaller pipe inside a larger one past a certain point means the larger pipe is out of spec, necessarily. So, I won't automatically agree about a .45 Colt chamber being out of spec, for length, if a .410 shell will go in. There's a question I need answered in order to form a more solid opinion.
My .45 Colt Rugers all have a "lip" or "step" at the front of the chamber. This step prevents .410 shells from going all the way in (in MY guns). I removed the cylinder of a Blackhawk and a Vaquero, and both the Remington and Winchester .410 shells I have dropped right in (and a rather sloppy fit) and were stopped by the step at the front of the chamber. If that step were not there, the .410 shells would enter full length.
So here's a question, is that "step" a required feature of the chamber specs? Could it be something required today by SAAMI but in the past was something left to the desire of each individual maker?
I know that in the past, some guns (usually the cheaper .38s but not exclusive to them) didn't put a step or ledge at the front of the chamber, the cylinders were bored straight through.
IF a .45 Colt chamber doesn't have that ledge, (and the action allows for the length) then a .410 shell will go right in, stopping on its rim or before, if contacts the rifling.
So, it would seem that the primary modification to a .45 Colt chamber is making it without the ledge at the front, and ensuring the .410 case isn't in the rifling, which would be a mod of the barrel, not the chamber.
I think it reasonable, pending clarification of some terms, we could consider the .45/410 a "hybrid" chamber, for now. But, I do hold that it is not a .410 chamber as found in .410 shotguns.
My other point involves the "fit" of .410 chambers in .410 shotguns.
However, I belatedly realize how we are drifting off the OP topic into details not directly related to the question. I've spoken to him, and he's satisfied with the answers he got about velocity from the Judge/Governor, so I think if we want to continue discussing the nuances of .45/410 chambers, we should do it in its own thread.
So, if'n y'all wanna play, I'll start one, or you can, if you get to it before I do.
Pretty much all non-heeled cartridge chambered revolvers are like this.
The "ledge" can still be there in .410 revolvers because the neck of the shell can be a smaller diameter than the .452 diameter of the bullet, but the problem is that Taurus makes that portion of the chamber and the throat a gargantuan .456 (or more) to be able to accommodate .410 shells loaded at the higher end of the diameter tolerance.
.456 inside any .45 Colt chamber would be nearly out of spec, so it's not an ideal .45 Colt chamber, but it's a lot closer to being a .45 Colt chamber than it is a .410 chamber.