Curiosity, .410 velocity
- Thread starter 105kw
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Cheapshooter
New member
No velocity, but some substantial results in ballistic gel.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=256aNCB4AVo
OK, this is more a more direct answer.....Around 820 fps according to this video. Pretty close to Federal's published velocity of 850 fps.
Certainly enough to do a lot of damage.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MOBzqul48Oo
And a third video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pE65-hrwC-I
The key being use handgun specific ammo.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=256aNCB4AVo
OK, this is more a more direct answer.....Around 820 fps according to this video. Pretty close to Federal's published velocity of 850 fps.
Certainly enough to do a lot of damage.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MOBzqul48Oo
And a third video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pE65-hrwC-I
The key being use handgun specific ammo.
Last edited:
Cheapshooter
New member
5 yards seems to be a common distance that 410 handguns have been getting tested at. With approximately 2-3" patterns I'm sure there haven been too many chronographs shot up by these profesionals.
Not wanting to spend an unknown number of hours watching videos looking for something someone here might have already seen, I just ask,
Has anyone seen testing where they actually shot all or most of the different ammo those .45/.410 revolvers can shoot?
Because, sure as anything some people are not going to get the "best" ammo or be sure to get the stuff made for handguns. They're going to buy game loads and probably the cheapest, and go off thinking they've got something they don't have.
Seen anyone test the regular buckshot along with the handgun stuff? Or a .410 slug? And it would be very nice to see what .45 Colt (and ACP) do out of the same gun at the same range.
The biggest issue I have with the .410 buckshot for defense is that its .410 buckshot. Each pellet is close to the .32acp for size, speed and energy, and a bit short of .380acp. Now we do need to balance that with the fact that several pellets should be hitting at once.
Now, here's the question, is 4 or 5 buckshot pellets going to be better than one .45 cal bullet? Is it better than a single .410 slug?
I note that in the gel tests some of the pellets did exit the block, but most did not. Some stopped short of the "recommended" 12" distance.
I'm well familiar with the 12ga and the .410 as long gun rounds, and have experience with the .410 from a 10" Contender. Buckshot in a 12ga is very effective (within its range) but I feel that's because of the large mass double, or more what the .410 throws.
Buckshot, the ones that hit, does poke more holes. But if those holes aren't in the right place, or deep enough to do the job, aren't they a waste?
From the gel tests in the videos, some of the pellets are going to do exactly that. Assuming a proper hit, I am unconvinced that .410 buckshot is superior to a .45 caliber bullet.
That being said, multiple hits from buckshot (even if some are peripheral) might contribute more to a psychological "stop" than a single bullet, however that's not something one can or should count on. If it were, #8 birdshot would be the premier defense ammo in the world, and, obviously, its not.
I'm not saying .410 buckshot is useless or that it won't work, I'm just unconvinced its any better (per shot) than standard .45 cal ammo. And I'm not certain its actually as good as some .45 colt or acp.
Now, a .410 slug might be another matter. From a handgun, its in the class of .357 Mag/10mm though with a lead slug, not a jacketed bullet.
I can see the sense in a .45/.410 revolver, using the .410 (with birdshot) as on board stowed anti snake shot and .45 Colt/acp for the defensive rounds.
Do remember that with the .45/410 pistols, the .410s are being fired out of .45 caliber barrels, which means they don't perform exactly the way they would fired from a proper .410 barrel.
Has anyone seen testing where they actually shot all or most of the different ammo those .45/.410 revolvers can shoot?
Because, sure as anything some people are not going to get the "best" ammo or be sure to get the stuff made for handguns. They're going to buy game loads and probably the cheapest, and go off thinking they've got something they don't have.
Seen anyone test the regular buckshot along with the handgun stuff? Or a .410 slug? And it would be very nice to see what .45 Colt (and ACP) do out of the same gun at the same range.
The biggest issue I have with the .410 buckshot for defense is that its .410 buckshot. Each pellet is close to the .32acp for size, speed and energy, and a bit short of .380acp. Now we do need to balance that with the fact that several pellets should be hitting at once.
Now, here's the question, is 4 or 5 buckshot pellets going to be better than one .45 cal bullet? Is it better than a single .410 slug?
I note that in the gel tests some of the pellets did exit the block, but most did not. Some stopped short of the "recommended" 12" distance.
I'm well familiar with the 12ga and the .410 as long gun rounds, and have experience with the .410 from a 10" Contender. Buckshot in a 12ga is very effective (within its range) but I feel that's because of the large mass double, or more what the .410 throws.
Buckshot, the ones that hit, does poke more holes. But if those holes aren't in the right place, or deep enough to do the job, aren't they a waste?
From the gel tests in the videos, some of the pellets are going to do exactly that. Assuming a proper hit, I am unconvinced that .410 buckshot is superior to a .45 caliber bullet.
That being said, multiple hits from buckshot (even if some are peripheral) might contribute more to a psychological "stop" than a single bullet, however that's not something one can or should count on. If it were, #8 birdshot would be the premier defense ammo in the world, and, obviously, its not.
I'm not saying .410 buckshot is useless or that it won't work, I'm just unconvinced its any better (per shot) than standard .45 cal ammo. And I'm not certain its actually as good as some .45 colt or acp.
Now, a .410 slug might be another matter. From a handgun, its in the class of .357 Mag/10mm though with a lead slug, not a jacketed bullet.
I can see the sense in a .45/.410 revolver, using the .410 (with birdshot) as on board stowed anti snake shot and .45 Colt/acp for the defensive rounds.
Do remember that with the .45/410 pistols, the .410s are being fired out of .45 caliber barrels, which means they don't perform exactly the way they would fired from a proper .410 barrel.
I probably need to be a little clearer.
I was curious about the standard Super X 2.5 and 3 inch 000 buckshot loads.
You can find testing on PDX, and other ammo set up for revolvers, but none on standard buckshot ammo
Factory specs on the box are 1300fps for 2.5in, 1175fps for 3in. That is probably out of a 18 or 20+ inch shotgun barrel velocity.
Has anybody checked velocity out of a short revolver barrel?
Thanks.
I was curious about the standard Super X 2.5 and 3 inch 000 buckshot loads.
You can find testing on PDX, and other ammo set up for revolvers, but none on standard buckshot ammo
Factory specs on the box are 1300fps for 2.5in, 1175fps for 3in. That is probably out of a 18 or 20+ inch shotgun barrel velocity.
Has anybody checked velocity out of a short revolver barrel?
Thanks.
Cheapshooter
New member
105KW, When the Judge first came out all testing for reviews were done with "field loads" because there were no handgun specific loads. That, in part, lead to the belief that the 45/410 revolver was nothing more than a gimmick. This has been pointed out in many of the videos about 45/410 now. Since the ammo companies have developed ammo specifically for handguns, the more recent videos point that fact out.
Maybe this one will help answer your question.
http://shootingthebull.net/blog/how-effective-is-a-hit-from-a-judge/
Maybe this one will help answer your question.
http://shootingthebull.net/blog/how-effective-is-a-hit-from-a-judge/
Cheapshooter
New member
With my Judge PD Poly having the primary use of "truck gun" for carjacker defense, the test I would really like to see is ballistic gel at very close range. Carjacker at your window distance of five or less feet, rather than intruder distance of five yards.
I'm sure the payload at that distance is going to be very tight, probably one hole close to bore diameter. But what happens inside the target with the hardened, copper coated buckshot in the Federal handgun 410? My guess is it will penetrate quite well because it has been shown to do so at longer distance. But I also suspect it will open up a wound channel considerably larger than a perfectly expanded 45 Colt.
Four 35 caliber (9MM) projectiles @800+ fps in a very tight group has to create a devastating wound. Then with a rapid second, and third similar shot there is no question it would be a stopper.
I'm sure the payload at that distance is going to be very tight, probably one hole close to bore diameter. But what happens inside the target with the hardened, copper coated buckshot in the Federal handgun 410? My guess is it will penetrate quite well because it has been shown to do so at longer distance. But I also suspect it will open up a wound channel considerably larger than a perfectly expanded 45 Colt.
Four 35 caliber (9MM) projectiles @800+ fps in a very tight group has to create a devastating wound. Then with a rapid second, and third similar shot there is no question it would be a stopper.
stinkeypete
New member
Maybe penetration is not the only measure of effectiveness?
Okay, as these handguns seem to be like modern revolver blunderbusses firing everything from no. 7 shot to nuts, bolts and washers (parts from the kitchen sink) I did some thinking about things I have killed with no. 7 shot- squirrels, tough little tree rats.
I observed that the no.7 shot doesn’t penetrate very much past the hide, yet they die instantly. No penetration, and sometimes with a hit from a .22 that goes clean through and they (distressingly) don’t die instantly. Shooting deer, the mechanism of death is very different between a 30-06 and a .45 Colt shooting cast lead. So I had to really think about lethality of different classes of firearms- penetration is not the only mechanism, so I looked on the Google and found farmerassist.com.au. That’s Australia, mate!
Damage to bone and soft tissue, disruption of blood flow to organs including brain, concussive energy, hydrostatic shock waves and massive instantaneous blood loss.
Watching the blocks of jello, they are wiggling like they are being kicked with a boot on each shot. That’s not quite what a .45 Colt slug would do?
One might say “yes, I don’t want my wild shots to penetrate walls and harm innocents in the next apartment” while someone else says “yeah, but what about guys wearing motorcycle jackets (thick leather)” and I’ll say “lighting off a .410 shell from a short barrel handgun at 5 yards or less at someone will produce a fearsome blast, boom and flash that they will be unable to ignore calmly” as well as “yeah, what if an intruder never shows up? It’s fine in any case!”
Let’s face it:
-if a .410 is good, a 410 pump gun is better.
-if you carry it around all day, light weight is better
-if you want a field pistol, light weight and accuracy are the ticket
-if you want a range pistol then super accuracy or super-rapid-fire are the competition.
-if you’re a cowboy, a double barrel shotgun is competition gear and double action is out. Wild Bunch... nope
If you want a modern day six shot blunderbuss... it’ll work. They sell fairly well. They are not a pistolero’s pistol.
Okay, as these handguns seem to be like modern revolver blunderbusses firing everything from no. 7 shot to nuts, bolts and washers (parts from the kitchen sink) I did some thinking about things I have killed with no. 7 shot- squirrels, tough little tree rats.
I observed that the no.7 shot doesn’t penetrate very much past the hide, yet they die instantly. No penetration, and sometimes with a hit from a .22 that goes clean through and they (distressingly) don’t die instantly. Shooting deer, the mechanism of death is very different between a 30-06 and a .45 Colt shooting cast lead. So I had to really think about lethality of different classes of firearms- penetration is not the only mechanism, so I looked on the Google and found farmerassist.com.au. That’s Australia, mate!
Damage to bone and soft tissue, disruption of blood flow to organs including brain, concussive energy, hydrostatic shock waves and massive instantaneous blood loss.
Watching the blocks of jello, they are wiggling like they are being kicked with a boot on each shot. That’s not quite what a .45 Colt slug would do?
One might say “yes, I don’t want my wild shots to penetrate walls and harm innocents in the next apartment” while someone else says “yeah, but what about guys wearing motorcycle jackets (thick leather)” and I’ll say “lighting off a .410 shell from a short barrel handgun at 5 yards or less at someone will produce a fearsome blast, boom and flash that they will be unable to ignore calmly” as well as “yeah, what if an intruder never shows up? It’s fine in any case!”
Let’s face it:
-if a .410 is good, a 410 pump gun is better.
-if you carry it around all day, light weight is better
-if you want a field pistol, light weight and accuracy are the ticket
-if you want a range pistol then super accuracy or super-rapid-fire are the competition.
-if you’re a cowboy, a double barrel shotgun is competition gear and double action is out. Wild Bunch... nope
If you want a modern day six shot blunderbuss... it’ll work. They sell fairly well. They are not a pistolero’s pistol.
Cheapshooter
New member
Let’s face it:
-if a .410 is good, a 410 pump gun is better.
But I can't keep a pump gun between the seat and console in my truck.
-if you carry it around all day, light weight is better
My PD Poly only weighs one ounce (27) more than my Sig P320 Carry (26) that is quite comfortable all day
-if you want a field pistol, light weight and accuracy are the ticket
Light enough (see above). Accuracy, my PD Poly has proven to be plenty accurate. Not sure what your "field pistol" means
-if you want a range pistol then super accuracy or super-rapid-fire are the competition.
I'm happy with 2" -3" inch, 10yd. groups with 45 Colt out of my Judge PD Poly. my range use is informal recreation, not competition.
-if you’re a cowboy, a double barrel shotgun is competition gear and double action is out. Wild Bunch... nope
I doubt the Judge was ever intended for that purpose.
If you want a modern day six shot blunderbuss... it’ll work. They sell fairly well. They are not a pistolero’s pistol.
Oh, oh, now you're gonna get flamed by those same "Pistoleros" for calling a revolver a pistol!
ī
-if a .410 is good, a 410 pump gun is better.
But I can't keep a pump gun between the seat and console in my truck.
-if you carry it around all day, light weight is better
My PD Poly only weighs one ounce (27) more than my Sig P320 Carry (26) that is quite comfortable all day
-if you want a field pistol, light weight and accuracy are the ticket
Light enough (see above). Accuracy, my PD Poly has proven to be plenty accurate. Not sure what your "field pistol" means
-if you want a range pistol then super accuracy or super-rapid-fire are the competition.
I'm happy with 2" -3" inch, 10yd. groups with 45 Colt out of my Judge PD Poly. my range use is informal recreation, not competition.
-if you’re a cowboy, a double barrel shotgun is competition gear and double action is out. Wild Bunch... nope
I doubt the Judge was ever intended for that purpose.
If you want a modern day six shot blunderbuss... it’ll work. They sell fairly well. They are not a pistolero’s pistol.
Oh, oh, now you're gonna get flamed by those same "Pistoleros" for calling a revolver a pistol!
īI believe I understand your intent, but I think "lethality" is not the proper term to use. First off, because there is no deader than dead. There is no dead++.
Second, when speaking in terms of self defense, the objective is not to kill, or not kill, the objective is to make the attack STOP.
It's a fine point of language, but language does matter AFTER the shooting is over. We can discuss this in depth, but that's a bit off topic for this thread.
here's a point, somewhat relevant to .410 pistols (and revolvers ARE pistols, too) and its the velocity of the buckshot (and all shot). Shot shells are rarely loaded to velocities above 1300fps. One reason is that this is the approximate max speed obtainable with black powder, so keeping speed (and pressure) in this range means that old guns can use the ammo too. But the practical part of the reason is that at velocities above 1300fps, patterns degrade.
Modern guns and ammo can produce speeds much higher but the don't, with shot loads, because even though higher speed means more energy, when the pattern goes to hell, the effectiveness of the shotgun decreases.
SO, at "best" we start with buckshot loaded to do approx. 1300fps from a long gun barrel, and then put it in a 2-3" "defensive" pistol barrel, so 800ish fps is not an unreasonable number.
Now, compare some different ammo and you'll find some doing about the same from the really short barrels, I would expect roughly similar speed from standard .45 colt. There are more powerful .45 Colt loads but I doubt the Judge/Governor can handle them.
There are .45 Colt loads that won't make that jello block just wiggle, there are some that will blow it off the table. But, again, I don't think you can shoot THOSE from a .45/410 pistol.
What I am most curious about, at the moment, is what does one get for speed and energy shooting .410 slugs from one of the short barrel pistols???
I'm looking at a box of Win 3" slugs and it says the speed is 1800fps. No doubt that's from a long (at least 18") barrel, but what's it going to be from a 2.5 or 3" tube??? I think it ought to still be significantly more than the buckshot.
At "point blank" range, shot strikes essentially as a single mass, so I think its fair to compare that against a single slug. IF that's the case (I'm willing to listen to arguments) wouldn't it make more sense to use the most powerful round practical??
Especially if you include "penetration barriers" such as heavy clothes, leather "armor", the attackers arm, or an angle where the vitals are more difficult to reach.
Just my current opinion, and I'm willing to change it, IF you can convince me, but I would rather have more "punch" and less spread if my personal posterior was at risk.
stinkeypete
New member
I don't mean to poop on anyone's favorite pistol, apologies if I caused any offense. I shoot at a minimum of 50' and mostly at 25 yards.
11/16 oz is 300 grain and I am sure the shotshells use a slow magnum powder like H110 (W296) or Lil Gun.. stuff like that which is also a good .44 magnum 300 grain powder. So... you can use that in .45 Colt +p loads as well...
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45colt.html
Measured from breach face to barrel end... and assume a 50 fps loss for the barrel gap (using .45 LC estimates from above source
18" 1275 fps -> 1225
12" 1179 1129
*9" 1154 1104
*6 1043 fps 993 fps with barrel gap between 1 and 6 thousandths.
(* 5.5" barrel with about 3" cylinder = 9")
I think it's an interesting enough idea that I ordered some .358" 90g wadcutters yesterday and plan to fool with loading two at a time with and without paper wad between them and just see how they fly and it will be fun to fool with them in my .38 (17.5 oz unloaded weight) to see if they can be accurate or how they behave. Goal- pop cans at 25 yards.
Thanks for pointing out that lethality is either, or not. We are not talking about bear spray.
11/16 oz is 300 grain and I am sure the shotshells use a slow magnum powder like H110 (W296) or Lil Gun.. stuff like that which is also a good .44 magnum 300 grain powder. So... you can use that in .45 Colt +p loads as well...
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45colt.html
Measured from breach face to barrel end... and assume a 50 fps loss for the barrel gap (using .45 LC estimates from above source
18" 1275 fps -> 1225
12" 1179 1129
*9" 1154 1104
*6 1043 fps 993 fps with barrel gap between 1 and 6 thousandths.
(* 5.5" barrel with about 3" cylinder = 9")
I think it's an interesting enough idea that I ordered some .358" 90g wadcutters yesterday and plan to fool with loading two at a time with and without paper wad between them and just see how they fly and it will be fun to fool with them in my .38 (17.5 oz unloaded weight) to see if they can be accurate or how they behave. Goal- pop cans at 25 yards.
Thanks for pointing out that lethality is either, or not. We are not talking about bear spray.
OneFreeTexan
New member
I love my Judge, I just like to shoot it,, However, at a range of about 5 yards, it is lethal on squirrels bothering my wife’s bird feeders.
I feel there is a point here that needs to be corrected. Each pellet is close to the 380 / 9mm/ 38 / 357 for initial diameter and .32acp for weight, speed and energy. A 000 Buck pellet in .35" (Hornady) -.36"(most everyone else). Depending on hardness they flatten from a bit to make nice disks at bore diameter. S&B shot is soft and the middle and rear makes a nice bore diameter disk.
SAAMI spec barrel for testing is 26"
Yes and anyone who has tested these powders across mutiple barrel lengths in revolers know that the velocity drop from 8"-4" barrels is fairly linear, when you go 3" and then 2" the drop is far more pronounced. Now according to Lymans #5 on page 108 the +/- delta for velocity vis a vis a SAAMI length barrel is 12.5 fps. With the slow powders the question now becomes at what shortened barrel length does that velocity delta change if at all? With the early field loads that were used since it was all they had it mattered a lot. A quick math check suggests it doesn't really matter because the 3" barrel calculates to 847 fps. but I've seen chrono velocities in the low 7's early on. Using powders more suited for shorter barrels made a huge difference.
stinkeypete
New member
Don't forget the barrel length is breech to muzzle, so if you neglect that, I got about 870 fps too. I was running off the charts and both that and your calculations agree.
I used to be a regular on the Taurus Forums and a few folks there had chronographed the Federal Premium .410 Handgun 000 Buck Shells. They generally averaged around 700-725fps out of the standard Taurus Judge with a 3" Barrel, and delivered roughly the same energy per pellet as .32 ACP.
Doesn't sound very impressive, but the results in Ballistics Gell certainly were, yielding about 16" of penetration per pellet, and a whole cylinder dump shredded the gel block.
One of the guys was actually a respected YouTuber who went by the name of ShootingtheBull410. I'd link to the video, but I'm pretty sure that's against the rules, and it can be easily be found on YouTube by searching.
Doesn't sound very impressive, but the results in Ballistics Gell certainly were, yielding about 16" of penetration per pellet, and a whole cylinder dump shredded the gel block.
One of the guys was actually a respected YouTuber who went by the name of ShootingtheBull410. I'd link to the video, but I'm pretty sure that's against the rules, and it can be easily be found on YouTube by searching.
I haven’t the opportunity to fire buckshot in Judge but I did out of a carbine version. Was shooting at a can on a fence post about 30’. Don’t know velocity but it bounced of the post.
Best advice I would give to Judge & Governor owners is to buy #4 or #5 shot for SD ranges which ain’t 30’.
Best advice I would give to Judge & Governor owners is to buy #4 or #5 shot for SD ranges which ain’t 30’.
44 AMP: YES with S&B. I've got recovered shot that is .397 x .22 disk with the sides scrubbed. The constriction on my Rossi which they were fired out of happens to be .397. Making it to .451 is not at all a stretch. I would expect the rifling to strip though so something on the order of .443 would be my expected result.
I would test it but .410 handguns are illegal in my state. Yes I still have some S&B 2 1/2" 000Buck loads on hand. I also have S&B 3" 00Buck loads....the recovered pellets all have grooves in their sides that correspond to the stiffeners in the wads and they too are flattened disks.
I would test it but .410 handguns are illegal in my state. Yes I still have some S&B 2 1/2" 000Buck loads on hand. I also have S&B 3" 00Buck loads....the recovered pellets all have grooves in their sides that correspond to the stiffeners in the wads and they too are flattened disks.