Could you kill a human and survive...?

[hogdogs]

After reading LOADS of posts here on TFL I am under the impression that following a self defense situation many would be mentally distraught about taking a human life.
My take on this IS NOT MALL NINJA mentality. I am 39 and years before I ever heard of a mall I made the decision I would be able to do so.
The reasoning took me many hours of thought on the subject of taking a life. Here is how I look at it. The human being is the most intelligent animal, one if not the only, able to "reason". I am a hunter I have shot and killed many different species. Why does this come into play you ask? If I can shoot and kill an innocent deer, rabbit, quail or pheasant that has done absolutely nothing aggressive to me than clean it and eat it I can shoot and kill a human. Now are we equals? NO SIR WE AIN'T! I am a law abiding human working hard to live paycheck to paycheck! Anyone that takes so much as one dollar from me offsets my ability to provide for my family. Anyone that wants to fist fight with me could cause me to be injured, missing one day of work really hurts my income that week.
Anyone that has evil intentions against me is a LESSER LIFE FORM. I assure you that the only sleep I will lose is from filling out paperwork at the police station! Just because you were born of the same specie as me does not make you equal to me. I am not cold hearted! I would just as fast step up to defend any INNOCENT human from aggression.
I will not stand back and be made a victim or watch others be made a victim at the hand of a selfish thoughtless human. I would not need to seek mental help or toss and turn with nightmares over my actions....
To clear the air... I did not have video games to grow up with (unless pong with skeet counts), We did not have cable until 1985-6 and then we did not have HBO, I was not a heavy metal listener... country all the way, went to church most of the time but momma told me we only had 2 cheeks so turn the cheek was a one time offer.. than you DEFEND. My mom carried a pistol in her purse when traveling or going to the "city" and when her friends asked why she told them "NO ONE EVER RAPED A .38" she never had a "permit" but did not care. I hunted on my own with a true fire arm from 12 years of age. I was taught gun safety and hunter ethics from 6-8 years of age.
Brent

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

If I can't, I guess the government is making a pretty bad investment...

 

[rwilson452]

Having a large part in the taking of human life in war. I have been down the road of what that means. I learned to deal with it. I did it on my own without the help of a shrink. Any taking of human life will have it's after effects unless your a sociopath. Most get over it in short order, some never do. During the LEO investigation it is one of the things they look for. Don't kid yourself, there will be some sort of remorse. How you deal with it is another matter.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Ahem. I might advise that your predicted psychological consequences may not be that accurate.

Not all folks develop serious psychological problems after a shooting but many do. A very large proportion of police officers involved in shootings quit the force after 5 years and report problems.

However, I'm not interested in arguing what someone thinks about themselves. For those interested in some psych preparation as well as debate ammo types and guns - one can find useful info for the civilian in the police literature.

I once posted a thread on this - about being mentally prepared that one could search for. Or a little reading could be useful to be aware of what might happen despite one's opinion now.

CopShock
Deadly Force Encounters
Into the Killing Zone
Practical Police Psychology.

Having taking a few tactical classes as a F.O.G., I know that many trainers alert the students to be aware of such. Men sometimes wallow in denial as having a psych problem is against their masculine self-image. That is your choice. It also leads to drug, alcohol, depression, family problems, work disruption, etc. Not everybody but it is a real risk. It can also develop over time and come back to haunt you after a few months.

Thanks by the way to my colleagues on the forum helping our team with our study of stress disorders in officers. You know who you are and are greatly appreciated!!

 

[TexasSeaRay]

Don't know about it as a civilian. As a military and law enforcement type, you learn to deal with it. I didn't think I had any real problems with it in the service--we were exquisitely trained and prepared and KNEW that taking one person's life to save another's was going to happen. Everyone was given a "lifeform" to choose that they really disliked. Mine was cockroaches. I hate cockroaches, despise them, never fail to step on one and crush it. I have zero feeling when I step on a cockroach. So for me, bad guys became cockroaches. For others in the unit, it was rats or snakes or spiders.

I never thought that any of us suffered any ill effects from our missions, even though I came out of the service a raging alcoholic.

Problem is, of our nine person unit, we got word two weeks ago that another had committed suicide. That's three suicides in not quite twenty-five years. With the exception of only one, all of us discharged with bad drinking problems--and none of us were even beyond the age of thirty.

Yeah, there can be problems.

Jeff

 

[The Tourist]

I believe that any action a man takes must come from his moral center.

Simply, if he has no morals we know the end of the story.

I don't want to kill anyone. In fact, I don't really even want to hurt anyone, considering the toothless townies I have met. In all seriousness, I believe drawing blood in anger is an unnatural act. I include the phrase "in anger" because like many of you, I enjoy eating meat and do not hide the fact.

Where this idea slips into situational ethics is when "loved ones" go into the equation. Now your action, or inaction, spills into their world. And you must consider that.

Would I let some bottom-feeder hurt my wife, my friends or my little dog? Of course not. I don't even consider that situational ethics in the big picture. I realize that there are just some things that no reasonable man can tolerate.

And while I would have made a lousy soldier (the life of Audie Murphy humbles me in every thought), I would have made a passable mercenary.

Now, that might seem in conflict to most of my post here. Not at all. I might not be able to rationalize the taking of life as an ideal, but you owe your boss an honest day's work.

And this is where we must consider the concept of "situational ethics" in judging others. Again, begin with a moral center.

 

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

To tell truth---if someone is out to do me or any of my family in--and I wind up taking them out---it really wouldn't bother me a bit. One less scumbag out there---good riddence.

Being that I've never shot anyone--I can't say that's how it would play out--but I know my personality and nature.

I don't go looking for trouble---but if it comes my way---they better watch out.

 

[The Tourist]

Being that I've never shot anyone--I can't say would be how it would play out

I agree, and I believe that this is the most important aspect of this debate.

Most of us wonder if we will chicken out at the last minute and stand there like an idiot. In fact, one TFL member chided himself for being near gun shots and doing nothing. Honestly, I believe most of us would do the same.

What haunts me is the flip side of the coin.

Consider this scenario. You're at home, relaxed after a good dinner. Without warning, your front door is shattered by home invaders!

Without thinking or feeling or hesitation, you pick up a pistol on your end table with no more passion that grasping a channel-changer and empty the entire magazine into the necessary vector of fire.

As every felon hits the ground, you insert an reload as taught, pick up a cell phone and dial 9-1-1 in a cold, determined timber of voice.

If any thing, the ability to cap a human being without thought scares me more. Now that the genie is out of the bottle, you'll need counseling, perhaps several weeks off of work. You'll second-quess yourself innumerable times as the scene plays over and over again in a tortuous endless loop.

That's a dark place I never want to go.

 

[CraigC]

Theoretically, yes. Do I 'want' it to kill another person? Hell no! There is just no way of predicting how you will react to such a thing. However, lingering in such thought processes can be detrimental to your survival. The first order of business is for you and your loved ones to survive the encounter. Personally, I'd rather have to live with killing a scumbag than live with having let my family down. That is a responsibility I take very seriously and it is the only thing that matters.

 

[spacemanspiff]

Anyone that takes so much as one dollar from me offsets my ability to provide for my family. Anyone that wants to fist fight with me could cause me to be injured, missing one day of work really hurts my income that week.
Anyone that has evil intentions against me is a LESSER LIFE FORM. I assure you that the only sleep I will lose is from filling out paperwork at the police station! Just because you were born of the same specie as me does not make you equal to me. I am not cold hearted!

Theres an expression that I will have to edit in order to post it: Poop happens. We deal with whatever problems life sends our way. So you lose $20 to a thief, big deal! So you have a broken hand from getting in a fight, big deal! It won't kill you or your family will it?
What you are describing goes much farther than self defense or the protection of others from deadly force or gross bodily injury. You appear to be talking about killing people who pose threats to your economical status and coolly smoking a cigarette while you wait for police. Don't forget to have your Concealed Carry Badge out and displayed prominently.

Yes this is a Mall Ninja thread, but it is cleverly camoflagued.

I will not stand back and be made a victim or watch others be made a victim at the hand of a selfish thoughtless human. I would not need to seek mental help or toss and turn with nightmares over my actions.

And yet you claim to be human? Human beings understand reason, compassion, empathy. Even for those 'lower life forms' who wish to do us evil. It doesnt mean we break down in tears when they get hurt or injured, but we do not seek to kill them. If they make the mistake of posing a deadly threat to us or others, we may intend to stop them, but only up til the point that the threat is diminished.
I take solace in knowing right now, that should I ever have to use deadly force, it will haunt me the rest of my days. I would be afraid if I didn't have that conscience.
Do you know what a conscience is? The inborn sense of 'right/wrong'? Its becoming more prevalent that people are not recognizing this sense, or ignoring it, or it just plain isnt there. Taking lives is NOT NORMAL.

edit - theres a simile for beating a dead horse, so wheres the similie for 'internet chest pounding'?

 

[TexasSeaRay]

I will not stand back and be made a victim or watch others be made a victim at the hand of a selfish thoughtless human. I would not need to seek mental help or toss and turn with nightmares over my actions....

Brent,

I understand your passion on this--I really do.

However, you have to be careful about making statements like this and even more careful in actually believing them. Fact is, nobody knows for certain how the taking of another human's life will affect them.

The mind is a funny thing. It's very independent. The more you try to convince it of one thing, often times the more it will rebel in its own funny, peculiar way. If you're lucky, the way it will rebel (in the event of taking another's life) will only be in the occasional nightmare. If you're not so lucky, it will rebel in ways that give you substance abuse problems, relationship problems, keeping and holding a job problems.

And if you're downright unlucky, your mind convinces to take your own life.

Always give your mind a way out. Don't work to convince yourself that your conscious knows better than your subconscious. Accept that you are a strong, moral person and that IF such a situation comes along, you will work through it openly and honestly.

But I can and will tell you one thing, and this is from experience: Once you've taken another human's life, you are never the same again. It will change you.

That's why it pays to keep an open mind.

Jeff

 

[chris in va]

After talking with a cop friend that had to defend himself in a bathroom, the main issue he had was with recurring visuals of the shooting. It simply played over and over in his head.

Don't think for ONE SECOND you won't 'lose any sleep' over a defensive shooting. It'll affect you greatly.

 

[hogdogs]

Spaceman, if some bum comes along and asks for 20 bucks I will tell him to get lost. Beyond this it is a robbery and I will have to assume the BG has intentions to harm me t get it. I wil not freely give it so I must defend myself against MY perceived threat. I do understand reason, compassion and empathy. I also understand that the BG has apathy towards his victims....
In the event I ever have to use force to protect me, mine or anyone else I will know that the BG had the same oppurtunity as me to use the same ability to reason, think about compassion and empathize... But failed to exhibit basic human ability thus proving they do not deserve the same regard I give to fellow law abiding folks.
Brent

 

[Wildalaska]

Anyone that has evil intentions against me is a LESSER LIFE FORM.

No human being is a "lesser life form". Untermenschen is not a concept that decent Americans subscribe too.

And yes, there are defective human units that we, as a society or as individuals may be FORCED to terminate. However, treating that lightly or not feeling regret or even just a bit of sorrow over such a solemn duty renders one equally as defective.

WildlovemybrotherAlaska ™

 

[KyleH]

[Sarcasm] I can't wait till I can prove myself as a man by shooting an intruder or zombies that attack me in a mall with random objects and I have an autoloading shotgun or uzi or smith and wesson 500. That'd be totally sweet. [/Sarcasm]

 

[CrazyIvan007]

I don't know how I would feel following having shot someone. I doubt it would be joy and entertainment...

But, I will say that if I had to shoot someone, it is a belief deep in my core...that if I am taken to such a level that I must shoot someone...that it was their choice, their actions which brought me to that point. If they die, are injured or are paralyzed, it is THEIR fault. It was them that chose to do something worthy of being shot. Discharge of my firearm at them would be nothing less than a scientific and automatic reaction to their action. I believe I would feel that way even after having gone through it as someone defending themselves.

 

[hogdogs]

WA, If you think that every human is an equal to yourself why would you consider carrying a gun? I would consider a mentally defective a reason to try and not kill that individual and get them to a mental health facility. The individual that was born with the capacity to be a functioning citizen but chose to take advantage on feeding on the society is not my equal. My equal get out of bed to go to a JOB to support their family, even a low life lawyer, they do not go about stealing and robbing from folks. I do not wake up intending to take a life. I guess I do at certain times of year but that is hunting....
Rootcanal, I didn't post a "what if" scenario... yer 'puter if goofed up! This thread is no different than a person going to a gunshop to buy a gun either for hunting or defense situation. It is part of the planning stage! If you buy the long gun you intend to take an INNOCENT life. A little innocent non-combatant life! At least i do. I intend to shoot "Thumper" or "bambi's" momma and daddy and cut their guts out and rip off their hide and eat them. I could buy cow meat that some one else killed but opt to get some variety. If you buy a gun for self defense you may be planning on never using it and I hope you never have to. But the day may come when you do legitimately need to kill a person. If you are not mentally prepared or if you are a little on the less strong side mentally, or even if it is against how you were raised you may face some of the worst second guessing imaginable! Worse, you may suffer a mental breakdown. If you never took any life previous to this it may be compounded.
I personally will never take a human life without it being absolutely necessary. Shall the need arise I am less concerned about him and his than an innocent creature I intentionally plan to hunt down. The human made the decision to go out and exploit another human illegally to gain income or whatever. I don't cry over the dead deer that was totally innocent and I darn sure won't lose sleep over a person that chose me or someone in my presence to exploit.
Kyle, You need to seek mental help! Since you admit you are looking forward to the oppurtunity to kill some one to prove YOUR masculinity you are obviously not someone who should own a gun let alone carry one in public. I feel for you and hope you find the mental assistance to correct your illness.
Brent

 

[hogdogs]

crazyIvan, you put that pretty well! Their fault is exactly what I was getting at in my original post. I do not hold a non-gun toting person responsible for getting robbed no more than I feel a citizen who shoots that robber responsible for his sudden lack of ability to continue his illegitimate way of earning an income.
Brent

 

[spacemanspiff]

This thread is just one hairbreadth away from being a "Have any of you ever killed anyone and if so, did it feel good?" thread.
:barf:

 

[Wildalaska]

WA, If you think that every human is an equal to yourself why would you consider carrying a gun?

What does one have to do with the other?

My equal get out of bed to go to a JOB to support their family, even a low life lawyer, they do not go about stealing and robbing from folks.

Low life lawyer? Your point is?

If you buy the long gun you intend to take an INNOCENT life. A little innocent non-combatant life! At least i do. I intend to shoot "Thumper" or "bambi's" momma and daddy and cut their guts out and rip off their hide and eat them.

And with that, I shiut my mouth and hit the report post button, holding on to the fragile knowledge that this is an adult Board...

WildnuffsaidAlaska ™