Cooper is nuts to say Scout Rifle is a fighting pc

[George Hill]

F4 vs F15 isnt an applicable compairison to a bolt rifle and an AR. More like an F-16 vs the F15. You show Pappy how to fly the little F-16 Falcon and put him in the hot seat - Watch out. Better planes like the F-15, Even the State of the art F-22... I'll put my money on Pappy.

But thats neither here nor there.

My point is you have a skilled shooter who knows his field craft and how to fight... Miniguns wouldnt help you. Even if you know your AR and how to fight it... The skilled rifleman with a Bolt Gun will know how to take advantage of his weapons strengths... Meaning he'll zip you or your buddy and be gone to a new position before you even knew where the shot came from.

Have you had any actually experience in dealing with that kind of threat - you would know just how dangerous that is. Just because a bolt gun fire one shot at a time - your extremely deluded to think just because you have a 30 round detachable box magazine - that your going to come out on top.

Skill over Equipment.
Any Day.

 

[Destructo6]

George, I was actually thinking of throwing in the F4 Phantom2 instead of the Corsair, but I just couldn't think of a Vietnam Ace that everyone would instantly recognize. Both planes are gorgeous, of course.

 

[Hardin]

no, those who THINK that they wont miss a snap shot

are the ones who are deluded, along with those who "think" that just cause a man has an auto, he cant be as sneaky and as accurate as a bolt user, especially if that bolt only wears a 2 1/2x scope,, and doesnt even feature luminous irons to handle the 50% of the time when it is DARK. Cars are cover against 308 from certain angles, even without the use of the engine block, and a 5 rd bolt action is hardly the arm with which to shoot up a car, in an attempt to hit a guy hiding behind same! There are a lot of square ft behind a car, and the guy can be moving back behind where you have already shot the vehicle. You empty your pc, and then what when he DOES pop up? Without grenades (and being within 40m with grenades) HOW is he a threat when he is behind something? While you are shooting up his car (quite noisily) what are his buddies doing? What are other opportunists that he doesnt know doing? will they want your gear? quite likely. Will they come sneaking around (the next night) after you blast a deer, dog, etc with 308? I would, so I have to assume that others would as well. Note that I said a CAR with a blast reducer. That little device changes everything, both hunting and combat.

 

[Glamdring]

If your solo vs multiple opponents you are dead if you allow them to fix you.

You seem to be fixated on a person with a Scout rifle, or other bolt action, using fire team tactics against a fire team?

That makes about as much sense as using cornerbacks as offensive linemen. Or using Offensive linemen as cornerbacks.

You seem to believe the biggest threat would be from bumping into a fire team at close range. Assume for the moment that is true. How does an AR give you, solo, an edge over 6 or so guys armed the same? Or even against two guys armed with scout rifles? To make things easy assume none of the opponents are any more skilled than you. Don't you think if you and an identical twin surprised your evil clone that the twins would win?

A scoped bolt action will allow you to engage units armed with AR's from beyond their effective range. So at least when you ambush them you would have an advantage.

 

[Blue Duck357]

Not a Cooper worshiper by a long shot and if someone gave me a Scout I would sell it and buy 4 or 5 other guns I would prefer.

I agree that a bolt gun is not as effective in close combat as a semi auto. But as a general purpose rifle yes the scout could be used as a fighting rifle if need came to be. No it would not be as good as an M4 in close combat nor as bad as a 12 pound benchrest rifle with fixed 32X scope. In long range "shoot and scoot" it wouldn't be as good as a 300 mag PSS with 12X scope nor would it be as bad as your short barrled AR. Remember this is a general purpose rifle for NOW not some apocolyptic time in the future.

Currently most of us use our rifles for hunting, plinking, and occasional competitions (general purposes). I'm not sure what general purposes your suggesting by creeping around with a 11.5 inch barrled suppresed CAR in gym bag shooting up cars, but I think I can speak for most of us on this board when I say we are not interested in such things.

If your really into that stuff head over to http://www.hardcoretalk.com where they have Breaking the Law and WTSHTF boards. Or hang out here, maybe I could even get you to put that nasty old direct gas impingement rifle away and interested in a nice Yugo model 48 or maybe even an Enfield Mk4

Regards, Blue Duck

 

[Hardin]

note noone has shown any interest in making thumper?

i explained in first post that Jeff's saying that a rifle make you a citizen rather than a subject. That most certainly DOES imply combat, against big brother's troops, in fact. Any who think that a Scout is better at long range than is a suppressed CAR has never seen the groups shot with scoped, match grade CAR's (6" at 300 yds) That is certainly capable of hitting 400 yd torsos, given the ideal firing conditions that ANY rifle needs to get such hits. Why CARE if enemy is immediately killed at such ranges? Let him scream and moan and flop around for a while. It's good for his buddies' morale. Without any idea where the 223 came from, what are they going to do about it?

 

[Dr45ACP]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought Cooper's scout concept was a "general purpose" rifle designed for the widest range of possibilities.

It is supposed to fill a variety of niches, only one of which is personal defense against humans.

I dont think Cooper ever suggested you should pick up a scout rifle and go attack a platoon of riflemen. The idea was that a single man with a rifle may have to engage human enemies, but in an evasive sort of way, not in an aggressive sort of way.

And for that, the scout idea is probably just fine.

 

[PaladinX13]

I think I know what Hardin is saying, but Cooper has made many outlandish quotes here and there... easier to just toss them out on the fringes of your mind and then try to grasp the main concepts, IMHO. It's Cooper's fault for talking in absolutes a lot of the time (which he sometimes contradicts), but it's our fault for reading too much into it. Personally, my own GP rifle would put greater emphasis on combat/defense rather than hunting as with the Scout concept... in that respect I agree with Hardin.

Now if I may sidetrack the thread slightly (rather than resurrecting some other one), how does the HoloSight stack up w/ the Scout concept? Is a 2x scope a part of the doctrine (meaning a HoloSight makes for a psuedo-Scout) or simply the practical choice out of a desire for quick snap shots, situational awareness, & long range accuracy at rest (all of which the HoloSight fullfills, IMO)?

 

[Derek Zeanah]

Hardin:

Any who think that a Scout is better at long range than is a suppressed CAR has never seen the groups shot with scoped, match grade CAR's (6" at 300 yds)

OK, so your favorite gun shoots 2 MOA. A decent bolt action will shoot 1 MOA or less.

Now, listen to what you're saying:
1) You've got a round that when fired out of a 20" barrel has only 50% of the energy of a .308 at the muzzle, and 35% of the energy at 400 yards (so it's doing slightly better than a 9mm's muzzle energy).
2) You want to reduce that even more by using a short barrel (11.5", right)?
3) Then you want to degrade performance even more by suppressing it?
4) Then shoot target ammo, which won't expand at all, especially at the velocity you've brought the round to?
5) You want to shoot this at armed hostiles at 400m? Which you plan on stopping with torso shots? Even though the "minions" you're concerned with will most likely be wearing body armor?

And you're saying that a .308 bolt action is inferior in this scanario you've concocted? More power (by half an order of magnitude), more accuracy, better able to deal with wind equals a less suitable round?

Dude, I don't think we're on the same sheet of music. I know it's a sexy weapon, it's just not practical in the scenarios you want to talk about (especially since none of us can legally own one). If you're talking about house-clearing, then that's a different subject. But....

Paladin:

Now if I may sidetrack the thread slightly (rather than resurrecting some other one), how does the HoloSight stack up w/ the Scout concept? Is a 2x scope a part of the doctrine (meaning a HoloSight makes for a psuedo-Scout) or simply the practical choice out of a desire for quick snap shots, situational awareness, & long range accuracy at rest (all of which the HoloSight fullfills, IMO)?

The latter. I think the electronic sights were ruled out because of their battery dependence, but there may be more to it -- someone here posted a review of the general rifle class, and said be got to shoot with Cooper's own scout because Cooper was so unimpressed with the reviewer's own rifle (equipped with an Aimpoint, I believe, which is more conservative than a Holosight).

 

[Dr45ACP]

Just because Cooper has said a rifle converts a subject to a citizen doesnt imply he recommend using the scout rifle for battle purposes.

Cooper, as we all know, likes 1911's but wouldnt recommend using that as your primary weapon in battle either.

At 300-400 yard ranges, I would definitely prefer a scoped bolt action to a scoped CAR. At those ranges, rapidity of fire is less important than accuracy and terminal ballistics.

Remember, the scout is supposed to be general purpose. So it also needs to be able to stop large game animals -- something 223 doesnt do very well.

 

[Matt VDW]

You empty your pc, and then what when he DOES pop up?

Why would I bring my PC to a gunfight? I'd be too busy to post instant updates to TFL.

Note that I said a CAR with a blast reducer. That little device changes everything, both hunting and combat.

A "blast reducer" is what others would call a "suppressor" or "silencer", right?

 

[Trevor]

FWIW: The Steyr Scout did go to war in the Balkans. A picture of such was posted on TFL a couple of years ago.

[Edited by Trevor on 01-02-2001 at 05:34 PM]

 

[Clayton Hufford]

My take on the matter is Jeff Cooper has forgotten more about rifles, shooting, and combat than Hardin, or anyone else here will probably ever know. The scout rifle will protect you and your home and provide you with meat, and it will do both things better than anything else out there. You have a much better chance of shooting a game animal with your rifle than you do a human being. Bolt action rifles have protected people, taken "game" animals far more dangerous than some crackhead with a .25 auto, and they have, ultimately, won wars in the hands of trained operators. A $200 surplus bolt rifle will do just as well as a $2500 mutant AR-15. It's the nut behind the butt. Regards, Clayton

 

[Art Eatman]

Seems to me this thread has already gotten more than just a bit circular. Sorta like wipin' your fanny with a wagon wheel--there just ain't no end to it...

More thinking and less emoting never hurt anybody, me included...

, Art

 

[ctdonath]

Just to pound the point a bit further: The scout rifle is a general purpose rifle. Sure, there will be rifles which do a better job of certain tasks than the scout rifle, but the scout rifle will do better on most others.

Looking for a battle rifle? Cooper highly recommends the M1 Garand.
Looking for a lighter weight, higher capacity close combat rifle? Try Cooper's "Thumper".
Hunting in the Alaskan wilds, and/or need large caliber with compactness? Cooper recommends the Co-Pilot.
Need to do riot control? Israelies use Cooper's suggestion of a silenced .22LR.
Normal citizen who just needs a general-purpose rifle? The scout rifle will do fine.

It's not wholly a black-or-white issue, as most guns can be used for any purpose, it's just that some perform better, and one balances most tasks (and their likelyhood) particularly well.

As for claims that Cooper does not entertain other people's ideas - not true. He is quite willing to evaluate ideas and form a solid, well-informed opinion...it's just that he's already evaluated most ideas; there's few ideas that are truly new. Those ideas that are new to him, he takes his time mulling them over. Per a recent post, he's currently evaluating the Reflex II idea (a tritium/fiber red (green?) dot sight), and expects to watch it for a while before deciding.

While one tool may perform better than another, that's just a small improvement in light of the talent of the user. It's not the arrow, it's the indian.

 

[JWR]

Hardin, about your point that only a prethreaded CAR can have a blast reducer and the boltgun owner can't: have you ever heard of a screw on muzzle break? You make your own can, buy a tap with the same thread as your threaded muzzle, and tap the end of the can. And no, I don't think a trip to the gunsmith to install a screw on muzzle break gets you any more attention than buying an 11" CAR. By the way, is the 11" CAR the one that gets 6" 300 yard groups? I'm impressed.

 

[Rmf33]

IIRC, Jeff Cooper stated that the 'Scout' rifle is intended to be handy, compact, lightweight, and capable of delivering a SINGLE decisive blow. Either you understand the principles stated by him, or you do not. Nothing personal meant here but, it's best not to compare apples and oranges. Play with one before passing judgement; I did
Bob

 

[Teufulhund]

Howdy Gunkid!! I see you found The Firing Line,you seem to be getting these fellows pretty wound up.

I found it funny that "Hardin" {AKA Gunkid} was recommended to visit Hardcore Talk concerning the nature of his post.
He wore out his welcome over there, and at the Frugal Squirrel page also,with his brand of survivalism.

If you check out these sites you`ll see what your in for!

On a different note, gentleman this is a great forum!!
I`m a big fan of the scout rifle.The Steyer leaves me cold for a number of reasons.My own scout "Ole`Lethal" was built on a K98 action, 19in.,.308, Shilen barrel,black laminated stock, Timney trigger,2 1/2X Leupold, Ching sling and Ashly scopemout and sights. It`s a little heavy by Mr.Coopers standard(7.3pounds),because I kept the Mauser steel.I just could`nt bring myself to junk it for some "pot metal" unit.She`s by far the easiest rifle to hit with ,under field condition, than any weapon I`ve ever owned.
She`s an honest rifle and I love her so!!

 

[Art Eatman]

A fella brought a Savage version of the Scout out here, a couple of weeks back. I found it easy to look through the low power scope and keep the "off" eye open. I imagine that if I took the time to practice I could become faster than at present with my conventional setup.

I'm guessing that it would be harder for me than most, because of the decades of developing the reflexes and style to which I've become accustomed.

It'll obviously handle any normal hunting scenario for the .308 cartridge. It should be faster for an aimed shot than conventional setups, since you don't lose time getting the target into the scope. That is, you don't have to use the barrel as a "cue" in aligning the scope onto the target. It's more like a shotgun or IPSC pistol: Eyes on target, bring weapon up until crosshairs are in between. (You can't do that with an M-16.)

Since a fast, aimed shot tends to collect at least one fella, and discourage his buddies, it oughta work okay in "normal" home defense. (I'm not talking the Mongol Horde, here, or a suicidal human wave assault.) When #2 or #3 of a group gets a bunch of his leader splashed in his face, his enthusiasm level wanes.

But all these kudos don't keep me from thinking that Mr. Steyr's taste is only in his mouth. He makes an ugly gun.

, Art

 

[Teufulhund]

The advantages of the forward mounted telescope go beyond just close range target acquisition at speed.
I`ve also found the scout scope,with it`s noncritical eye relief makes getting off a shot in any position faster and more accurate.The scout rifle is`nt a varmint rifle or a sniper rig,it`s intended to be carried over hill and dale. When a target appears whatever position that will work in the circumstances is assumed.Most of the time there will be some sort of time consideration, so it will have to be done quickly.I find the low power is a big help keeping the wobble under control while I catch my breath and squirm around trying to get steady.As far as precision shot placement goes with the scout scope,I have no problems staying well inside a paper plate at 300yards from quickly assumed field positions,open leg sitting or prone.
I sure agree with the opinion that the Steyer Scout is ungainly,why did it have to be square? Good Grief!!
As far as the Gunkids sugestion that if a bolt gun shooter meets two adversaries at 100yard the bolt gunner dies.Yea right!,guys around here are shooting clay pigeons off the top of fence post from the offhand at a 100yards as fast as they can pull thier scout rifles out of recoil(we have frequent matches).
Gunkid you need to try some of this sillyness for yourself before you make these goofy sugestions,but I guess they are no more far fetched than the situations you envision using your rifle, in the first place!!!
Cheers,