Convenience store shootout,

[FireForged]

It all boils down to evidence. That evidence will be reviewed, considered, examined and judged by imperfect people.

evidence matters, open minded police matter, fair minded DA's matter, reasonably intelligent jurors matter, honest media matters, good witnesses matter, A judge skilled in the law- matters, a good defense attorney- matters, having a reputation for truthfulness matters, being able to articulately convey crucial facts in oral interviews and in written form- matters, having not been the primary aggressor and having not provoked or caused the difficulty- matters.

 

[TunnelRat]

Agreed, and part of my point. If we approach this from the standpoint of everyone being unreasonable, dishonest, and everything arranged against you then there is no possible "good shoot". Everyone in the process matters, including ourselves as witnesses and potential members of juries in other cases. You have to have some level of faith in the system because some of it is out of your control. If a person can't accept that then he or she should rethink carrying a firearm.

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[Aguila Blanca]

Speaking of evidence, I'll just point out that the security video we've seen has been edited into clips that don't show the entire sequence of events. I played it back at 25% speed, and I didn't see the bad guy go out through the door and then come back in. Unless a viewing of the complete, uniterrupted, unedited video shows me something to the contrary, I'm of the opinion that he was still a threat when the mother fired on his.

A couple of people have suggested staying behind cover. Serious question: WHAT cover? That flimsy counter the women were behind? That probably would stop a pellet from a BB gun. That might be "concealment," but it's not "cover." There is a difference.

 

[FireForged]

we don't know what it is made out of
we don't know what year or decade it was built
we don't know if it was premade or built on site
we don't know what items are contained within the counter
we don't know what the shotgun was loaded with
we don't know what items are displayed in front of the counter
we don't know what material or items might be affixed to the front of the counter

All that being said, I am not sure how someone comes to a merited conclusion about the quality of cover based on just the video. I don't think you can

for this discussion lets deem this a cheap prefab unit even though it is probably vintage and of better construction

many of these cheap type of cashier counters are 3 layers of plywood (front), HD laminate covering over wood, melamine foam insulated with a stainless steel kicker panel.

Its fair to assume that there are all manner of paper products, cleaners, cleaning supplies, phone book, binders, water bottles, a bucket, a bag of safety granules, a fire extinguisher, a radio, flashlight, gas can, overstock of cigarette cartons, roll of trash bags, a hammer, a first aid kit under the counter. I also assume that there is a metal cash drawer, conduit, electrical components and electrical outlets likely in metal retaining box and metal conduit.

It may not stop all manner of projectiles and certainly not rifle rounds but it would probably stop quite a bit of a shotgun blast and smaller handguns commonly used by robbers. It should also offer some deflection as well as slowing down the projectiles. If you notice in the video, the badguy reaches over the counter trying to shoot at them .. he didn't just try to shoot through the barrier. In addition to whatever cover it may offer it is also mental barrier as I just mentioned

If someone wants to suggest that it probably wouldn't stop a BB gun, please feel free to qualify that belief. You may be 100% correct but I am curious as to the basis of that belief.

 

[FireForged]

Serious question: WHAT cover?

Based on what I see in this very brief video and associated clips from varying news outlets showing the inside and outside of the the store, it looks old and unrenovated.

The appearance of the counter seems to be of thick butcher block top, 2x4 framing , 1x8 or 1x10 shelving and sides panels. I cant see the front but even the cheap fab units are commonly several sheets of plywood for the front. It is presumably filled with all sorts of utility supplies w which I indicated in my previous post and is flanked by wire racks. The unit looks like something that commonly would have been built on site using readily available building materials.


Depending on what projectile we are talking about and fired from what cal weapon and depending on what angle.. This type of counter might offer reasonable cover from the weapons we see in this video but we cannot know without more information. Would I have used it as cover?.. yep. Do I stand by the suggestion that staying behind the counter is a much better idea than walking up to the front door?.. yep.

 

[HiBC]

Really? REALLY?
Y'All can get in a big whizzing ego contest about the construction material used at the checkout counter?

This is worse than CNN. "And IF its TRUE!!…...then a 2000 word essay.

You might check to see if the National Enquirer is hiring.

No one used the counter to stop bullets.Its a moot point.Whether the checkout counter was Masonite or AR plate is irrelevant.

I do not think anyone was particularly calculating their courtroom strategy for self defense.They were fighting for their lives against a thug armed with a sawed off shotgun.

In those few seconds of terror and chaos ,no one is using rational,analytical thought. They are n a primal place.

When I had my Alaska bear incident,I was in a tiny two hoop ,4 lb Moss backpacking tent.My Wife woke me up by saying "Don't let the bear bite me again" I zipped the tent door open and he stuck his head in.


I cannot make a single rational argument to support the fact that I tapped him across the face with my shotgun. No doubt some GENIUS will tell me I should have shot him...and no doubt they can write 3000 words about it.


So what? It does not matter. The bear temporarily backed up. He's dead. I'm not.
Hindsight is 20/20 in slow motion with retakes.


To me,the point was in chaos,when things were not going right,They got it done...


Its interesting.Today is June 6th. D-Day. The ramp is lowering on your landing craft. A german machine gun is hosing the boat. People are falling.

Everything is going wrong. You make it to the beach.Everything s still going wrong.

Just like these women,you kept shooting. Maybe not very well,but you made it off the beach.


If I was making bets,I'd have bet on the thug with the shotgun killing two women.

 

[TunnelRat]

I'm confused. What does the bear have to do with this?

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[HiBC]

Its my real life experience with waking up to a real life threatening experience with chaos .Bouncing my shotgun off his face seems stupid in hindsight.
I "woulda/coulda/shouda shot him in the head with a 12 ga slug from 10 inches.

I didn't.Chaos does not analyze very well

 

[FireForged]

Y'All can get in a big whizzing ego contest about the construction material used at the checkout counter?

Its not a contest, I was simply qualifying my belief that using it as cover was an option. If someone wants to disagree, fine. I will at least offer my thoughts within proper perspective. The point is to foster fruitful discussion not win a ego contest. In essence, I want the other person to know where I am coming from so that they can better form their agreement or disagreement.

It doesn't really help the discussion to simply say... nu-UH.

No one used the counter to stop bullets.Its a moot point.Whether the checkout counter was Masonite or AR plate is irrelevant

then you have missed the point of the discussion.

I do not think anyone was particularly calculating their courtroom strategy for self defense.They were fighting for their lives against a thug armed with a sawed off shotgun.

sure... in the moment is not a good time to do that. Its better to hash those type of issues in training, scenario development and [discussion] before bad a person is thrust into a fast moving crisis. Things like how to qualify jeopardy and how to properly measure force and how to mitigate risk during your response are all things that you can hash out in discussions like we have here. Its not really calculating courtroom strategy but more of a helpful learned protocol.

 

[zincwarrior]

I'm confused. What does the bear have to do with this?

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More importantly is the bear armed? We support the right to bear arms around here.

 

[TunnelRat]

Wow, you even threw in a D Day reference. Nice imagery.

I think people know chaos is a thing. Again, it doesn't mean you can't analyze a situation. Had no one on Omaha (man we've really traveled through time and space from that store) realized they needed to make an exit then more people would have died. Fear is natural. Making mistakes is natural. You still need some presence of mind to survive.

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[CDW4ME]

Couple rationalizations to dismiss relevancy (lesson) of video that I've seen before:
-I don't work in a liquor store
-My shot placement with a P32 under stress would be like John Wick (generalization)
The it won't happen to me/here rationalizations always focus on how that incident doesn't apply to them.
Rather than say, "Wow, there was an attacker that didn't quit even after being shot several times and it was in the daytime"
Nah, rationalizers post something along the line of: I feel protected with my P32/P3AT unchambered in a pocket with my soiled hankerchief, I could draw and rack it after a lethal attack starts, six shots is plenty, its all about shot placement, criminals run away when the shooting starts, I'm in a "good" area, I only go to the Tack & Feed at 10AM so if a robbery happened at the Tack & Feed at 7 PM ... it don't apply to me.....

 

[Lohman446]

Nah, rationalizers post something along the line of: I feel protected with my P32/P3AT unchambered in a pocket with my soiled hankerchief, I could draw and rack it after a lethal attack starts, six shots is plenty, its all about shot placement, criminals run away when the shooting starts, I'm in a "good" area, I only go to the Tack & Feed at 10AM so if a robbery happened at the Tack & Feed at 7 PM ... it don't apply to me....

In fairness to the rationalization argument I would offer the counter argument that the custom 10MM, 120 rounds of ammunition and back-up .357 revolver do not guarantee safety either.

We might both be dealing in a bit of hyperbole but I think the idea of the argument, to either end, stands.

 

[stephen426]

I'm glad that the ladies survived the ordeal and that the robber got shot and arrested. It could have gone very badly for the two ladies. I think we need to give the mom some credit when she made sure to empty the revolver once she felt the robber was going to take it from them. I think that is what kept the daughter from getting shot. Based on the size of the revolver, it was probably a .38 special. I'm not sure what kind of ammo, but it clearly shows that no one should expect one stop shots.

The daughter could have easily hit the mom when she shot the robber in the back. Over-penetration was very possible as well as just a missed shot from the mom and robber struggling for the gun. It makes me think about the time where we did a hostage/hostage taker scenario with our practical shooting club. I did not have enough angle and ended up shooting through the hostage taker and hitting the hostage.

I think my biggest take away is to fire a few rounds in succession rather than firing one round and watching for the reaction.

 

[Blue Duck]

My opinion is the women survived, and it's easy to Monday morning quarterback the event.
I see a case where private citizens fought back with privately owned guns and prevailed despite more then likely not much training, and what looked like low powered mouse guns, and and some pretty good luck.

They made some quick decisions in a few seconds, and survived.

lessons I see that we could take away:
1. If you are going to resist, be decisive, shoot and keep shooting, till the threat is down or gone.
2. Sometimes concealment and hopefully cover can and should be utilized.
3. For defense in a store like that, a 9mm for off body location, should probably be the min. Personally, I want a 40cal or bigger.

4. And finally, when the ball drops, the outcome is never guaranteed, and whatever one might plan or visualize, It will probably go down differently.

 

[Leaf]

I pity the fool what would attempt a similar scenario with these ladies in the future.

 

[USNRet93]

I pity the fool what would attempt a similar scenario with these ladies in the future.

Hopefully lightening won't strike twice for these ladies but considering the (expected) chaos, I think they did great. Considering the (expected) arguments for certain calibers and handguns, the fact that they were armed and not afraid to use it....good on them..I'm sure the bad guy didn't expect armed resistance..Most(all) are cowards looking for the easy mark.

 

[amyacker]

This also shows how important it is to have high capacity magazines, because she ran out and the deadly threat was still fighting.

 

[FireForged]

I disagree with the idea that "most: armed robbers are cowards. I submit that they are more likely to be violent, well formed predatory personalities who are indifferent to common morals, values and perceived consequence. The fact that they are often organically predatory in nature makes it rather unlikely that they are cowards. Are there some half hearted robbers who are not organically violent or predatory?.. sure, but that is a exceedingly unusual. When I say organic, I don't mean that they are born unusually predatory, I simply mean that it has become their nature as apposed to someone who is acting out of pure desperation or other dire consequence.


On the expectation of resistance: I think that most burglars, robbers, home invaders, car jackers - do in fact expect resistance and accept it as an inevitable part of the landscape. It doesn't mean that they do not prefer the road of least resistance but the road they ultimately choose can depend on many things.

I wouldn't count on a violent criminal being a coward and I wouldn't count on them to be taken off guard regarding resistance. That belief might actually work against you if you happen to be suddenly thrust into a dangerous conflict with one. Badguys do not always operate in the manner of hubcap-stealers or vandals.

 

[FireForged]

This also shows how important it is to have high capacity magazines, because she ran out and the deadly threat was still fighting.

The process by which a person selects a weapon is typically full of compromises. A smaller, lighter weapon is almost always going to come at the detriment of capacity. Having a large (full size) weapons is not always practical or possible. I wont argue against a higher capacity magazine but sometimes personal skill is more important than number or rounds. In a perfect world we will always have plenty of skill and resources but it doesn't always play out that way in real life.