OldMarksman
Staff
Excellent advice, but I would not limit it to those who might intend to carry a single action revolver. I was carrying a 9mm double-stack compact when my eyes were opened to those things.
That, too, is so,thing that must b learned.
Concealed carry
- Thread starter ShootistPRS
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ShootistPRS
New member
Couldbeanyone and OldMarkman,
How quickly can you run the El Presidente drill? Three targets, three yards apart, at 10 yards. Two shots on each target, followed by a reload and two more shots in each target?
Seven seconds with a single action is a pretty good time. I do it in 6 seconds with my DA 357. !0 seconds used to be the standard by which you were considered good. Now I understand that with speed guns the fastest times are dropping to close to three seconds but the rules on concealed carry are gone and the competitors are obviously not using the gun they carry in the manner in which they carry it.
How quickly can you run the El Presidente drill? Three targets, three yards apart, at 10 yards. Two shots on each target, followed by a reload and two more shots in each target?
Seven seconds with a single action is a pretty good time. I do it in 6 seconds with my DA 357. !0 seconds used to be the standard by which you were considered good. Now I understand that with speed guns the fastest times are dropping to close to three seconds but the rules on concealed carry are gone and the competitors are obviously not using the gun they carry in the manner in which they carry it.
OldMarksman
Staff
I don't.
Around seven years ago, I was intruded to it. In the course of one day's shooting, I improved my time by about 30% or more. I frankly cannot remember my best times. I was shooting a Commander-size steel frame .45. Those who were using larger frame 9mm pistols did a lot better.
Accordion to Jim Wilson, El Presidente times of ten seconds are "par" with a semi-automatic pistol, and When shooting a revolver, par for the drill is about 12 to 13 seconds. That's caring with a cover garment.
The drill has its uses, but it's not for me, for four reasons: (1) the shooter always knows where the target is in advance; (2) the distance is always the same; (3) ten yards is somewhat beyond the range of distances at which a defensive shooting incident is likely to take place; and (4) the emphasis is all on speed, and not on achieving a good balance of speed and precision.
On (3), one might think that skill at ten years should be transferable to shooting at two yards, but that is really not entirely true. On (4), speed is the objective of the drill, but once one can do it, it is, in my opinion better to go on to something else.
I recommend the I. C. E. PDN Combat Focus Shooting course. The distances will vary, and the student will not know where the target is in advance; "split times" are not measured--the emphasis is on a balance of speed and precision. That will depend on the distance in each "encounter", each of which will involve placing three to five rounds in the upper chest area as quickly as possible after identifying the target and drawing while moving off-line. Almost all of the distances will be well within ten yards--most within five.
Reloading is part of the drill, but not after a fixed number of rounds. The gun is loaded with varying numbers, and the purpose of the reloading exercise is to help develop skills to react to an unexpected malfunction.
couldbeanyone
New member
How fast can I run El presidente?
Its not something I really practice anymore. Used to be around 5 seconds. I don't compete much in anything but steel challenge anymore. I am 55 and my knees aren't what they used to be. Competitions that require running and rapid direction changes are generally not for me anymore. I don't shoot race gear. Leather holsters and production guns are for me. Although I compete often, I have never been a "serious" competitor, never bothered with uspsa membership or getting "classified". I always shoot production or limited, but I always want to beat everyone. I don't care about being classified as a master, I just want to beat the guy who is.
But enough of that, in my opinion, which is worth what you paid for it, unless you can go to a steel challenge match and finish in at least the top half overall with your single action revolver you are not "good". If you can't do that, perhaps more practice or an easier type of gun to perform with such as an auto or a double action revolver could be in order. After all, your opponent may not limit themselves.
Its not something I really practice anymore. Used to be around 5 seconds. I don't compete much in anything but steel challenge anymore. I am 55 and my knees aren't what they used to be. Competitions that require running and rapid direction changes are generally not for me anymore. I don't shoot race gear. Leather holsters and production guns are for me. Although I compete often, I have never been a "serious" competitor, never bothered with uspsa membership or getting "classified". I always shoot production or limited, but I always want to beat everyone. I don't care about being classified as a master, I just want to beat the guy who is.
But enough of that, in my opinion, which is worth what you paid for it, unless you can go to a steel challenge match and finish in at least the top half overall with your single action revolver you are not "good". If you can't do that, perhaps more practice or an easier type of gun to perform with such as an auto or a double action revolver could be in order. After all, your opponent may not limit themselves.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
After reading this thread, assume you have Doc Brown's DeLorean.
You go back to the old West (as they did) - you bring along some Glock 19s. You meet Wyatt Earp, Wild Bill, etc. You offer to sell them the guns with lots of ammo and magazines for some new $20 gold pieces.
Do they turn you down for their single actions?
You go back to the old West (as they did) - you bring along some Glock 19s. You meet Wyatt Earp, Wild Bill, etc. You offer to sell them the guns with lots of ammo and magazines for some new $20 gold pieces.
Do they turn you down for their single actions?
OldMarksman
Staff
In his admittedly paid testimonials, one William Barclay Masterson, former marshal of Dodge and former US Deputy Marshal, made some very persuasive arguments about the advantages of the Model 1907 Savage semiautomatic pistol in .32 ACP.
ShootistPRS
New member
Yet "Bat" never owned anything other than SA revolvers. Eight of them throughout his life.
OldMarksman
Staff
That is something that would be impossible to prove.
What did he have with him at Adobe Walls? With what did he hunt buffalo?
Did he pass on the opportunity to own a Savage after having written a book about it under contract? Why?
There is an account that Masterson ordered eight from the Colt factory. Another account claims six; and yet another, nine.
He was reportedly given one by a Mr. Buntline.
And he reportedly bought a number from pawnshops, for re-sale.
No handgun is a 'battle gun'. Pretty sure no army in history has sent out soldiers with nothing but handguns to battle. Pistols are sidearms, pistols are concealable, and pistols also cannot compete with rifle calibers(velocity, range, damage, ect). Statistically speaking, more people die from knife wounds than gunshot wounds. A handgun is a great deterrent, good in close quarters against limited number of badguys, and can be hidden much easier.
ShootistPRS
New member
It is always impossible to prove a negative. It is possible to find evidence of his orders from the Colt factory. I'm just an old man remembering the history I learned along the way. My memory isn't always accurate but I don't remember him ever using anything but SA revolvers.
It was Bat's norm to order directly from Colt when he wanted a gun or two. There are records of at least a few of his eight that were ordered from the Colt factory.
It was Bat's norm to order directly from Colt when he wanted a gun or two. There are records of at least a few of his eight that were ordered from the Colt factory.
Kevin Rohrer
New member
Pistols are not by definition, utility, or usage "battle guns". They are for last chance defensive work only.
ShootistPRS
New member
Kevin,
The statistics of handgun use in the USA by civilians contradicts your assessment.
The statistics of handgun use in the USA by civilians contradicts your assessment.
OldMarksman
Staff
If one confines the statistics to lawful use of handguns by civilians, that assessment is spot on.
Lawful use almost always means "for defense of persons", and it always means, as a last resort.
Thoreau wrote, "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." For some people coping with that manifests itself in living their life as if their living room might at any moment be transformed into the O.K. Corral.
And if people who want to envision their life as something about to erupt into the opening scene from an episode of Law & Oder want to prepare for that, they have that right. And they have the right to post advice according to that expectation.
What you have to ask yourself is what you expect your concealed (or open) carry weapon to do?
If you expect to be facing a biker gang at a restaurant in Waco, Texas, then, yeah, you need all the gun and all the ammunition you can get. But if you just want to defend yourself against a junkie looking for money for his next fix, anything with a barrel and firing pin is probably sufficient.
The organization I am contracted with for most of my work doesn't allow weapons (or ammunition) on the premises - including in a car in the parking lot - so rather than having at 5:00 a.m. to make sure I haven't left behind even a wayward 22 LR, I don't carry most of the time. But when I did routinely carry, it was an RG-25, 25 ACP pistol. The two times I was called upon to draw it, it was all I needed.
Again, ask yourself what you expect to need the pistol to do and then arm yourself accordingly, train for those eventualities, and ignore the people who expect to refight the Battle of the Bulge on their way home tonight.
JoeSixpack
New member
It's a big leap to go from a small pocket gun as reasonable to a fullsize handgun being ready for reenactment of the battle of the bulge.
I can't think of any pistol I'd choose as my primary weapon in a firefight.. maybe a pair of glock 18's with 33's in them.
But I think I'd still pick a good rifle.
Despite what the news tells you the country is pretty safe.. how many of us outside of LE have had to draw a gun on someone let alone shoot them?
It's uncommon to need a gun at all so hell maybe battle of the bulge will erupt in my living room to night.. who's to say.
If you are just planing on staving off a lone mugger then that's fine.. It's not uncommon for them to come quantities of more then 1 though you should know.
I can't think of any pistol I'd choose as my primary weapon in a firefight.. maybe a pair of glock 18's with 33's in them.
But I think I'd still pick a good rifle.
Despite what the news tells you the country is pretty safe.. how many of us outside of LE have had to draw a gun on someone let alone shoot them?
It's uncommon to need a gun at all so hell maybe battle of the bulge will erupt in my living room to night.. who's to say.
If you are just planing on staving off a lone mugger then that's fine.. It's not uncommon for them to come quantities of more then 1 though you should know.
OldMarksman
Staff
Preparing for what one might "expect" or "want" i does not really constitute prudent risk management at all. One does not control the eventuality.
That's a pretty good assessment, in my opinion.
But it has absolutely nothing to do with what one might want to be carrying, should the need arise.
One would choose a firearm that one can shoot effectively, rapidly; one that has adequate penetration--I would default to the FBI testing standards; and a sufficient capacity.
What constitutes sufficient capacity? Consider these things:
- not every shot will hit in a defensive situation;
- the mythical "one shot stop" would be an anomaly, and several hits will likely be needed;
- there is at least as great a chance that there will be two or more assailants as one; and
- some margin of safety would be prudent.
BigSteveEM
New member
Hello , I have had a CCW permit for years. I also am an NRA Instructor since the 90's. My personal belief is carry concealed by making yourself proficient with your carry gun/guns with the proper holsters. You are at a tactical disadvantage advertising your firearm. I am sure I am not the first person to say that! You have 0 advantage in advertising your condition of carry along with no need to verbally speak of it to people other than your spouse. I also believe she should have her permit and her OWN firearms. I have seen this kind of topic many times over the years and sometimes it ends nastily because the originator forgets to go back to original premise .....CONCEALED ! Good Luck ......
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Well as far as what you should carry base it on what you can hit with. No hotrod specialty gun is worth a plug nickel if the man carrying it can't hit the broad side of a barn. If you are comfortable with an SAA then carry it.
I carry a S&W 329PD 4" TI cylinder Scandium framed wheel gun every day full of 240g white box rounds. Mine has had the internal lock pulled and I put one of my LOCK DELETE part set and one of my Combat Cylinder Releases which is an all steel cylinder unlocking bolt or the Smith to replace the MIM bolt. I make both parts out here in AZ. (yes capitols its the branding name for my parts)
Overkill for the streets of Phx probably. But its a very comfortable gun for me that has had two potential failures that I'm not willing to risk my life on removed with parts swap. Not to mention its only 25 oz empty so I don't even notice I'm carrying it most of the time.
I carry a S&W 329PD 4" TI cylinder Scandium framed wheel gun every day full of 240g white box rounds. Mine has had the internal lock pulled and I put one of my LOCK DELETE part set and one of my Combat Cylinder Releases which is an all steel cylinder unlocking bolt or the Smith to replace the MIM bolt. I make both parts out here in AZ. (yes capitols its the branding name for my parts)
Overkill for the streets of Phx probably. But its a very comfortable gun for me that has had two potential failures that I'm not willing to risk my life on removed with parts swap. Not to mention its only 25 oz empty so I don't even notice I'm carrying it most of the time.