Competitive shooting a plus in defense.

[FireForged]

Those who have had the occasion to train force on force will likely agree that when you are trying not to get hit.. your tactics and strategies are substantially different from those in shooting sports competition. Its kinda like the kid who has been driving an automatic for a whole year but then takes his drivers test in a manual shift car.

 

[MrBorland]

your tactics and strategies are substantially different from those in shooting sports competition.

No one said they weren't. Yet again, we repeat: Gun games aren't SD training. If you want & need SD training, get it. But build upon a solid foundation of shooting and gun handling skills. Competition is one way to get that foundation.

 

[Jim Watson]

It is impossible to argue against formal training, but unless you have a lot of time, money, and interest, it has a trap.
It is all to easy to assume that if one takes a training course, he is Trained. Retraining is expensive. Continuing practice in the school doctrine is difficult to stick with. Even if you do, how do you know you are still Doing It Right without a qualified critic?

I have seen it many times; people assume that a single or few training sessions makes them proficient. They are usually wrong.
Competition can keep up the physical skills, but "tactics" are still up to you to maintain.

Of course if you are high end military or police for whom regular retraining and grading are both a job perk and a condition of employment, the question does not arise.

 

[pax]

If you want & need SD training, get it. But build upon a solid foundation of shooting and gun handling skills. Competition is one way to get that foundation.

I'd say it's the other way around.

Build the foundation first -- via qualified training -- then go practice and refine your speed/smoothness within a competitive environment.

Competition is no place to learn the basics. It's just a good place to practice.

pax

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I'll chime in. IDPA for me, is the only venue for monthly practice at different distances, movement, etc. It gives practice in the reload and clearance (yes, guns jam). The scenarios are not that realistic - but it is a skill practice for the draw and things like that.

I use my carry holster, and one of my carry guns. I do not optimize to win (as I won't being a FOG now). I shoot one of my bugs on occasion.

As mentioned by my colleagues, this is practiced layered on topic of a good deal of defensive handgun training, including a good deal of FOF.

My motor memory for the draw, reloads, clearance, holstering, etc. - can't get that at the square range.

I do not have Dunning-grandiose syndrome. I find little of that with the folks I shoot with.

I agree that optimizing for the game (an IPSC flaw - ducking) is silly if you argue for SD practice. For example, I shoot with my everyday glasses. I know folks who get specific IPSC or IDPA lenses made. Nope - I go with what I wear.

For data - we don't have anything but anecdotes to make a definitive statement as to whether a high end competitor bit the dust because of this or that. Yep, maybe in South Bumdump, a person waited for the buzzer before defending the family. But so what.

 

[MrBorland]

Build the foundation first -- via qualified training -- then go practice and refine your speed/smoothness within a competitive environment.

Competition is no place to learn the basics. It's just a good place to practice.

having a good baseline in shooting skill and gun handling is a good foundation, and many would do well to recognize that. Shoot competitively or not. Whatever. But DO shoot to improve your skills.

Point taken, pax. The main point, one we seem to agree on, is the importance of a solid foundation.

 

[pax]

Yep, I'd say we're on the same page with that one.

Let me throw a monkeywrench into the works, just to keep things lively. This came from Wim Demeere, who runs an awesome blog at www.wimsblog.com. The exact quote can be found [here].

He writes:

A real-life attack is not the same thing as training for such an event. Training prepares you for something and by definition cannot be the identical to the real thing. I though that was obvious, but apparently, it isn’t. Especially in the fighting arts, people seem to miss this point. Not so in other sports though.

When was the last time you heard somebody claim line drills in football are useless because nobody plays football in a line like that?

Whenever I hear people complain about competition being "unrealistic," or about the futility of practicing defensive skills on a "static range," I think of Wim's comment.

Everything starts somewhere. The foundation might not look much like the rest of the building, but it's what holds the whole thing up. You might never even see the framework, but it's what holds the whole thing together. Those who only look at the outer walls have missed seeing almost everything that makes the building remain solid in the midst of an earthquake.

In the same way, some folks only see the chaotic reality of violent encounters -- and miss seeing the foundation that makes a meaningful defense possible, or the framework that holds the shooter together long enough to get the task done.

All practice, all training, all competition -- every last bit of it -- involves some level of unreality. Unless and until we're actually shooting people who violently resist our attempts to get away and survive, we're practicing an unreal activity on some level.

The deliberately-induced flaws that we endure for practice include (but are certainly not limited to!)

• shooting cardboard, paper, or steel instead of human bodies
• shooting immobile targets, or targets that move only in very predictable and rhythmic ways
• the 180 rule
• no expectation of interference from bystanders
• checking to see that the gun is loaded and our mag pouches positioned just so before we start the string
• every drill is a shooting situation

The challenge for us is to be aware of those factors. Whether it's simple range practice, a competition stage, or a class drill, we should be able to identify which type of unrealism or flaw we're going to work with today. The real trick is to never become so in love with our own preferred venue that we stop being aware of the unrealism it contains.

pax

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I'll go a step further and say that even the gunhandling techniques themselves can be optimized either for the games, or for self defense.

But not both...

I understand and agree.

Competition is an opportunity to practice skills that can be useful in self defense. It's up to each of us, if we choose to take that opportunity, to also choose to compete in ways that make the most of that opportunity.

 

[Bultaco]

I think there is much to be said about the trainability of the individual student. I had an opportunity to take a 3 day class of 4 people with Ron Avery. The emphasis was shooting skills. Out of the 4 people that took the class, one was a bodyguard with most of what Gunsite has to offer under his belt. One was a decent shot civilian in his 30s. Another was a retired 60 year old and me.
2 of us (the bodyguard and I) took notes and worked with his videos. (the class filled in a lot between the lines in the video). One guy (30s) participated in the class well but was letting personality differences interfere with his day. The 60 yr. old had gone to Gunsite every year for about 4 years and considered training to be a wealthy mans form of entertainment.
Ten years or more later. The 30 something guy is a pretty good shot if he would practice but he doesn't. The 60 yr. old is no better than he was then. The bodyguard is an excellent shot and never stops practicing the fundamentals.
I got to be good within the framework of limited physical talent and I too continue to practice fundamentals in both live & dry fire on a regular basis.
All of us have had access to all the targets and unlimited free outdoor range time at our club with no restrictions on movement or anything. All of us could afford ammo to practice to our hearts content. 10-20K rnds. a year. The difference outside of natural talent was willingness to practice with discipline versus plinking and who worked on basics versus who just wanted to play.
You can lead a horse to water, but what he drinks and how much he retains is up to the horse.

 

[fastbolt]

Sometimes these "training v. competing" threads end up all over the map.

Some thoughts ...

Just like attending training doesn't necessarily "guarantee" anyone will walk away from it with any particular level of actual understanding and skills development, participation in competition probably doesn't offer any guarantees, either.

Learn bad habits, keep bad habits and practice bad habits? Get better at doing bad habits, regardless of your chosen venue.

Beware of developing bad habits. Learn to recognize them and get rid of them. That's the trick, though, isn't it?

Learning what constitutes a bad habit, or just a bunch of habits that are counter-productive under some circumstances, might require training under the observation of a skilled and experienced trainer, or, it might require listening to skilled and experienced competitors and learning from them.

Whichever direction interests someone (dedicated defensive shooting or shooting competition), it may also require recurrent training and/or being taught competitive skills development ... supported by carefully conducted practice sessions designed to further reinforce and ingrain proper skills.

Many skills and abilities seem to overlap the defensive shooting and competitive shooting "fields". Why would this surprise anyone?

Specifically training to adhere to rules for competition may not be the same as training to understand and employ sound tactics and skills that may be needed for real-world situations and circumstances. Okay, fine. Learn the difference and then learn to apply the appropriate skills within their respective venues.

Figure out what you want ... or simply want to acquire first ... and then work to accomplish it. That may require some experienced help. Fine. Get it. Listen to it. Understand it and learn how to properly practice it once it's learned.

Bad habits can be insidious in creeping back into our actions, but that's not a surprise if we consider that we've probably invested a lot of "training" in ingraining them in the first place.

Also, learn to realize and know (and accept) what you don't know, but need to know. Figure out what you want, and work to accomplish it. Again.

So what if it takes some occasional help and insight from other folks, either "trainers" or accomplished "athlete" shooters who have the gift of imparting their knowledge and experience?

Take advantage of learning from them when they cross your path, as that may not happen again.

Seek out accomplished trainers/instructors as you're able. That's not always easy, nor affordable. (Enjoy it and cherish it when you can make it happen.)

Practice may be tentative, at first. It may be grueling and tiring, even once it's being properly done and applied. No reason you can't enjoy it along the way, though.

At some point in their continuing skills development, some folks may figure out how to apply the lessons learned in one field in their pursuit, application and enjoyment of another field. No reason that can't be cool, right? To say it slightly differently, skills and knowledge may be where you find them, but that doesn't mean you can't translate some lessons learned from one field of interest or endeavor, to another endeavor (competitive shooting to defensive oriented shooting, and vice versa).

A solid handgunning foundation skillset is probably going to be useful, in the long term, no matter whether someone decides they want to be a leisure/range shooter, a handgun hunter, a defensive oriented shooter or a competitor of one sort or another ... or all of the above.

Any number of skilled shooting competitors have arisen from within the LE field.

Any number of LE/Mil shooters have discovered there's some benefits to be gained from either working with competitive shooters, or engaging in one type or another of sporting/competitive shooting sport.

These things don't have to be mutually inclusive, or exclusive.

Sorry for the random thread.

Something I've come to realize after 44 years of martial arts interest and training, and 25 years of having worked at being a LE firearms instructor, is that the longer I've been at these pursuits, the less I'm willing to consider I've come anywhere close to approaching mastery of either myself and or my pursuits.

That's not any reason to stop trying, though, right?

Best of everything, folks. Stay at it.

 

[pax]

The difference outside of natural talent was willingness to practice with discipline versus plinking and who worked on basics versus who just wanted to play.

You can lead a horse to water, but what he drinks and how much he retains is up to the horse.

Bultaco,

Excellent point. Ultimately, people do whatever they're going to do.

Some people will waste their training dollars by taking classes, but never practice to build in the good habits they need to build.

Others will waste their practice time by never learning how to do the skills they're practicing.

Some will neither learn nor practice, but will waste a lot of hours talking a good game on the internet.

Some will learn the skills, practice them diligently ... and never do the hard internal work to be sure that they're really prepared to use the gun as a deadly weapon.

Some will do all that, and more.

At some point in their continuing skills development, some folks may figure out how to apply the lessons learned in one field in their pursuit, application and enjoyment of another field. No reason that can't be cool, right? To say it slightly differently, skills and knowledge may be where you find them, but that doesn't mean you can't translate some lessons learned from one field of interest or endeavor, to another endeavor (competitive shooting to defensive oriented shooting, and vice versa).

A solid handgunning foundation skillset is probably going to be useful, in the long term, no matter whether someone decides they want to be a leisure/range shooter, a handgun hunter, a defensive oriented shooter or a competitor of one sort or another ... or all of the above.

What a great post!

The part I just quoted reminded me of one of the best students I ever worked with. She told me she'd never touched a handgun before our class -- and yet every single shot was beautifully centered. She handled the gun without fear and she performed the manipulations without apparent effort. She followed instructions carefully and did not fall apart when we put her under stress. Even when we sped up and had her shooting much faster than most beginners can manage, she held it together.

So I asked: "What's your background?"

She'd never touched a handgun, but she was an accomplished rifle shooter who enjoyed all types of hunting. With just a little instruction, the skills transferred.

pax

 

[zincwarrior]

One example would be how you hold the gun. Do you hold the gun in a way that optimizes shooting with a relaxed trigger finger, or hold it in a way that optimizes your grip strength on the gun and increases the difficulty of someone else knocking it out of your hand?

Must be a different competition grip than I've seen. We generally hold a grip as tightly as can be done without shaking as it promotes a faster reset for fast shooting.

Another would be how you choose to get the slide back into battery after a reload. Do you optimize for speed at the expense of 100% reliability when the gun might be dry or dirty? Or do you optimize for reliability while understanding that you'll be giving up a tenth of a second on your reload speed?

A subtle but good point. I guess the optimal would be good tactical classes in addition to competition.

 

[MrBorland]

With just a little instruction, the skills transferred.

+1.

It underscores a point I frequently make - shootin's shootin. You need to see what you need to see, when you need to see it, then break the shot cleanly.

Whether it's bullseye pistol, IDPA or High Power Rifle, the shootin's largely the same. Do these fundamentals well, and the rest are details you can figure out. Do the fundamentals well, and the shooting world is your oyster.

 

[Brit]

The story of the Dr. heading out to his pistol match, loading his truck?

As a working Dr. he might have restrictions on what gun, if any, he carries on a day to day basis, case in point, he is going to a pistol match, IDPA?

But not carrying as soon as he is dressed?

The way to carry a defensive pistol, is always!

For instance, my monthly IDPA match, two Glock19s set up the same way, 4lb triggers, extended slide release, Truglo night sights, one is in the safe, in a Wilderness gun bag.
A dirty, coffee spilled on it gun bag, grey colored.

Under passenger front seat, a nice clean Gun bag, empty. Step into Jeep, indoor garage, press door remote, drive out, from backed in position.
Outside, remote close.

The same holster I carry in, I use in match, the same mag. pouch, I use in match, ditto, I add one for the match. Gun on hip goes into bag at match, with 17 round magazine, under seat from the rear. Gun I will use for match, now in holster, unloaded.

Nato 124g (and others) I use in match, I carry 147g Ranger, none +P.

It goes without saying, I am retired, and carry a Glock 19 every day.

You can not have a mind set that you are going to play? And drive off with that thought uppermost in your mind, guns in bags and boxes, in the trunk.

The gun carrying cult, yes we are all part of a very small segment of the law abiding American Citizens who choose to not ever be victims, and go armed every day. Not paranoid, just aware, and always armed.

Fighting? I did more fighting on the Door of the clubs I worked at in Liverpool UK, on a single Friday night, than most Adults have done in their lifetime up to this date.

Translate physical to gun play? We will have to wait and see how that pans out.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The deliberately-induced flaws that we endure for practice include (but are certainly not limited to!)

shooting cardboard, paper, or steel instead of human bodies
shooting immobile targets, or targets that move only in very predictable and rhythmic ways
the 180 rule
no expectation of interference from bystanders
checking to see that the gun is loaded and our mag pouches positioned just so before we start the string
every drill is a shooting situation

Good points, Kathy - that's why if you can find it and afford it - quality FOF training is so useful.

1. I've been in exercises with the life like targets that don't fall unless you hit them correctly.
   
2. Some move and come charging at you!
   
3. 360 ranges - expensive
   
4. I've been shot in the back a nice young woman who was the secret buddy of the shooter (whom I did shoot quite well). Also, taken down the convenience store robber with vigour - I was faced with the backup. Shot him but it was close.
   
5. They give you a gun with unknown ammo loads and duds for fun. Sometimes you have to whack the robot with your gun!
   
6. Good FOF takes you through de-ecalation, no shoots, and just running for it.

Now, I grant you it is hard to do this very often. But I highly recommend it.

When I go to the competition, I have loaded gun on me and ditch it for the competition gun at the range - following appropriate procedures.

 

[Jamaicanj]

I think the "games" are very useful.
-You get to practice shooting on the move
You get to shoot at moving targets.
-You have to discern good from bad targets to engage.
-You get to watch better shooters to see how they do it and often times the more seasoned shooters will give you guidance as to your stance, grip, etc
-It is far better than shooting standing still at a static range with no pressure of a clock or an audience
-It is fun!!!

Note: I have not tried out IDPA as yet, but I enjoy IPSC

 

[g.willikers]

I'll take all the opportunities for learning and practicing I can get.
Training sessions, matches, whatever.
It's all good.

As for getting shot and instantly being out of action, don't tell Wild Bill Hickock.
He once got into a shooting fracas with a saloon full of guys, got hit in one arm, switched to shooting with his other one, and saved himself.
Not all of his practice was from getting shot at, either.
He practiced just about every day, and didn't even have a dueling tree, or a drop and twist.
Probably just trees and bottles.
At our local club, we incorporated the scenario into one called "Are you as good as Wild Bill."
And, naturally, it included switching shooting hands in the middle of it.
It's something to practice.
Never know when a skill can come in handy.

 

[MrBorland]

boondocker385 - It's been stated numerous times on this thread that competitions are gun games and not SD training. Nonetheless, shooting competitively has it's merits.

And BTW, not everyone shoots a racegun in competition. In fact, many (most?) use guns & gear that're surprisingly not so.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Long time ago I had this friend who thought he was fast with a gun.

We went to the range and put up two IPSC targets at 7 yards. Stood side by side. I let him draw first. Virtually every time I shot my target before he even cleared the leather.

Why?

I was already a class A IPSC shooter and even though we both used revolvers (to be fair) I had no trouble. We see this all the time with new shooters in IPSC, IDPA, action shooting, etc. First time out they fall apart.

People who think they can shoot cause the hit some target slow fire but never have shot against others.

Yes competition helps. You learn to control yourself while thinking fast.

Deaf

 

[boondocker385]

Borland...dang you just waiting for people to disagree with you?????
.I edited it because it was too much to type about the upsides of games and the downside with my thumbs.

Given how few people train effectively, games usually result in someone pointing out flaws in techniques used by participants which is a good thing.

Everyone should try some force on force training. Go shoot paintball with nothing but a face shield and throat protection, most people learn the value of tactics in a hurry. It isn't using your carry gun, but most people wise up or walk off in a hurry...