Colt 1991 (not a typo): POA vs. POI

[TunnelRat]

Hi all,
The only holiday deal I took part of was the rebate offer on the Colt Government 1991. I've had the gun out to the range a few times and I've been happy with it mostly, but what I do notice is that the POI seems high compared to the POA. I'm not sure if I am just using an incorrect hold or if the pistol is sighted for a further distance. All of my shooting has been at 10 yds (my range is buried in snow and the target stands are sort of where they are for now). The typical hold I use is with the front dot completely covering the POA. I'm getting groups about 2" higher than that at 10 yds. Any thoughts?

-TR

 

[Jim Watson]

The sights are probably set for the top of the post at 25 yards.
The dot is for fast rough aim.

And I don't care what Sig says.

 

[chris in va]

Shoot it off bags when you can and find out where it's hitting. I found out my P01 front sight was too tall and had to order a shorter one so it hit 6 o'clock hold.

 

[WC145]

Sounds like your sights are set for a six o'clock hold, try putting your target on top of the post like your dotting an "i" instead of covering it with the post.

 

[RickB]

Sights cannot be "set for a six o'clock hold" without having a specific target, distance, and load.
As noted, you should not be covering the intended POI with the sight.
Try a 1" dot at 10 yards, with the dot right on top of the front sight (ignore the white dots as much as possible). I suspect bullets will hit within and inch of the dot.
If the bullets hit one inch high, then you have coincidentally discovered that you can use a 6:00 hold on a 2" target at ten yards.

 

[KyJim]

Sights cannot be "set for a six o'clock hold" without having a specific target, distance, and load.

Maybe not for every shooter under every situation but the "standard" load for a 1911 is 230 gr FMJ traveling at about 830 fps. Distance would most likely be 25 yards. I'm not sure what a specific target has to do with it unless you simply referring to the size of the target. The Colt Manual for the Mark IV Series 80 and 90 (including the 1991) clearly shows a six o'clock hold at page 30 (distance not specified).

Here's a screen grab of the manual showing the sight picture:

 

[RickB]

Yeah, that's what I'm referring to.
If the target is 8" in diameter, then a 6:00 hold requires POI to be four inches above POA.
If the target is 4" in diameter, then 6:00 requires POI to be two inches above POA.
If the target is moved from 25 yards to 50 yards, or you change from one load to different load, you'll have to change the sights to maintain a 6:00 hold.
If the distance and target diameter are not specified, then the illustration is useless, other than to show that you shouldn't obscure your desired POI with the sights.
At ten yards, it's not going to make a huge amount of difference, as long as the target isn't more than about 2" in size.

 

[WVsig]

Does no one read the manual anymore? As KYJim stated thet 80 Series Colts are setup for a 6 O'clock hold.

 

[RickB]

That's a nice illustration of a 6:00 hold, but no way to know where the bullets are going to land on the target without size and distance.
6:00 is not, can not, be a universal aiming technique unless the target is always the same size and always at the same distance.

 

[rock185]

What RickB and Jim Watson said. Much more often than not, front sights with a dot, Colts, SIGs or otherwise, shoot high for me if I center the dot on the target rather than the top of the sight. Isn't it interesting that the Colt, with fixed sights, is supposed to be aimed at 6 'O clock on the target? The current Government Model Colt is a descendant of the old 1911. Wasn't the 1911 adopted as a combat pistol? Perhaps Colt thinks we are all just target shooters now days. I have drifted fixed rear sights, and changed front sight heights, many times to get various pistols to shoot center of mass at the distance, and with the ammo, I prefer. Others have preferences that are certainly just as valid. In a potentially lethal situations, I never wanted to have to figure "Kentucky" windage, or elevation. In any case, I think some/many shooters don't realize that only they can sight in their pistol to their preferred POA/POI with whatever ammo they choose to use. Nobody else, and no machine rest, has the same grip, trigger press, vision, etc. as the person actually shooting the gun......ymmv

 

[schneiderguy]

My 1991 puts the bullet at the top of the front sight post. I blacked out the dot anyway.

 

[tipoc]

The 6 o'clock hold shown in the pic is for 25 yards. It will hit about there at 10 yards or 15 yards.

I'm not sure if I am just using an incorrect hold or if the pistol is sighted for a further distance. All of my shooting has been at 10 yds (my range is buried in snow and the target stands are sort of where they are for now). The typical hold I use is with the front dot completely covering the POA. I'm getting groups about 2" higher than that at 10 yds. Any thoughts?

So the gun is hitting about where it should if you used a 6 o'clock hold. Try that hold and see what happens.

Most fixed sight service guns are set for a 6 o'clock hold at 25 yards. The difference between fixed and adjustable sights is that you can set your own point of impact with the latter. Most shooters cannot tell the difference at 25 yards.

tipoc

 

[TunnelRat]

Does no one read the manual anymore?

Nah, I just do it to annoy you.

Most fixed sight service guns are set for a 6 o'clock hold at 25 yards.

My experience for most modern production guns has been counter to this with most of them needing a hold covering the POA. I honestly can't remember the last pistol, in over 60 now, that I used a 6 o'clock hold with.

Anyway, thanks for the tips and I'll try a 6 o'clock hold next time out.

 

[tipoc]

My experience for most modern production guns has been counter to this with most of them needing a hold covering the POA. I honestly can't remember the last pistol, in over 60 now, that I used a 6 o'clock hold with.

Maybe we're shooting different guns. But not that much has changed in the last 20 years or so.

Or maybe it's that most folks don't shoot well enough to tell the difference. You're talking a 3" difference in point of aim point of impact at 25 yards so unless a fella is consistently holding and shooting 2" groups at 25 yards...they won't see the difference. And if a person consistently shoots 2" groups at 25, they will know how to adjust for the difference so that it does not matter. If you're shooting bullseye or hunting it matters. With combat style competition or defense it does not matter that much worth mentioning.

Often from one brand of ammo, or one batch to the next or one gun to the next, a slight variation is not unusual. The height will change with bullet weight as well, often by a few inches at 15 or 25 yards.

tipoc

 

[Walt Sherrill]

And if a person consistently shoots 2" groups at 25, they will know how to adjust for the difference so that it does not matter. If you're shooting bullseye or hunting it matters. With combat style competition or defense it does not matter that much worth mentioning.

Part of it, too, is that I think a lot of folks TALK about shooting groups at 25 yards but don't really do it as often as they say. Particularly older guys, like me, who have eyes that don't seem to work as well at those greater distances as they used to...

 

[TunnelRat]

Maybe we're shooting different guns. But not that much has changed in the last 20 years or so.

Or maybe it's that most folks don't shoot well enough to tell the difference. You're talking a 3" difference in point of aim point of impact at 25 yards so unless a fella is consistently holding and shooting 2" groups at 25 yards...they won't see the difference. And if a person consistently shoots 2" groups at 25, they will know how to adjust for the difference so that it does not matter. If you're shooting bullseye or hunting it matters. With combat style competition or defense it does not matter that much worth mentioning.

Often from one brand of ammo, or one batch to the next or one gun to the next, a slight variation is not unusual. The height will change with bullet weight as well, often by a few inches at 15 or 25 yards.

tipoc

Group size is only part of it. The group itself will still be centered about a different point on the target. Most folks can't do 2" standing at 25 yds, but if you're hitting 3" lower than your POA you should notice. This was at 10 yds and it was enough to notice and I'm not a bullseye shooter. Glocks, M&Ps, SIGs, HKs, Berettas, etc are all typically set up to put the dot on top of the POA rather than at 6 o'clock.

 

[tipoc]

Group size is only part of it. The group itself will still be centered about a different point on the target. Most folks can't do 2" standing at 25 yds, but if you're hitting 3" lower than your POA you should notice.

I think you're likely right especially about where the group is centered. One should notice if they are shooting 3" high or low even with a 6" spread.

But this should be no puzzler. If the center of the group is not where it pleases you with a fixed sight gun aim a bit higher or lower and see the poi shift and go from there. Meaning that now you know where that weight and type bullet will hit from that gun and if you care to use that in a carry piece go with it in confidence, but know that another type bullet may hit a bit different.

This is called Kentucky windage and I'm not sure what they call the elevation, Illinois elevation, Mexican elevation? Maybe just shooting.

If that practice bothers folks they can always change bullet weight or get adjustable sights.

If it's the case that many makers these days have gone to poa/poi then what that means is that for a certain bullet weight (and no other) the sights are set not for 6 o'clock but for the poa/poi sight picture. In this case the front sight does not cover the point of intended impact but the point right above the front sight. In other words the bullet should hit just where the front sight points where one can see the top of the front sight. The front sight does not cover or hide what you intend to hit, instead what you intend to hit sits right on top of the front sight. Not 3" above it but right on top. Marketeers refer to this as "combat sighting" but it's marketing.



tipoc

 

[TunnelRat]

In this case the front sight does not cover the point of intended impact but the point right above the front sight. In other words the bullet should hit just where the front sight points where one can see the top of the front sight. The front sight does not cover or hide what you intend to hit, instead what you intend to hit sits right on top of the front sight. Not 3" above it but right on top. Marketeers refer to this as "combat sighting" but it's marketing.

No I mean the front sight dot literally covers the point you intend to impact. Shown at the link below in picture 3.

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/sightimages.jpg

That is how most of the recent production pistols I've owned have been set up. A few have been sight picture 2 as well as you mentioned, but I know my HKs and at least the SIGs in the form of the P320 are sight picture 3 as I shot them the same day.

I'm not saying Colt is bad or that they're screwed up. I'm just saying it's different than the majority of what I've used. I'll do some of that adapting and overcoming thing. It's not a big deal, just wanted to ask others.

 

[tipoc]

I'm not saying Colt is bad or that they're screwed up. I'm just saying it's different than the majority of what I've used. I'll do some of that adapting and overcoming thing. It's not a big deal, just wanted to ask others.

It's a 1911 and has been set for 6 o'clock hold with a 6" bull since, well 1911. So at 25 yards with a 230 gr. bullet should hit about 3" or so above the point of aim.

I've found that at 12 or 15 yards if I take a 6 o'clock hold on a 3" shoot n see, it hits close enough to the center for me.

If you want to hit where u like a 200 gr. or 185 gr. may do what you want. Try it.

The sight picture number two that you show is what I was trying to describe. In that the point of impact should be in the center of that target or at the point that sits on the top of the sight. You can see the target over the sight. Sight three obscures the target.

As you point out some of this has changed for some guns but it is either a matter of preference or of marketing. It makes little difference in a defensive encounter or in the combat meets particularly at closer distances.

Each of these sights is set based on shooting from a rest. Meaning the factory sights are made from calculations based on shooting from a fixed rest.

What usually makes more of a difference is the type grips used, the shape of the frame, whether the hands are slippery, the weight of the bullet used, how the shooter handles recoil from that gun, whether the shooter has a flinch, etc. Those factors make more of a difference.

The shooter and not the sights is responsible for where their bullet will hit and selects weight and type bullet to suit their intentions and preferences.

All three of the sight pictures you illustrate come from competitive shooting, none have their origins in the military or police.

The 1911, Hi-Power, the Luger, the Walther P38, the Berretta 92 and all fixed sight service wheelguns all used the 6 o'clock hold with particular weight bullets at 25 yards. Many others as well. This came from bullseye and accuracy standards were set by that standard.

tipoc

 

[TunnelRat]

It's a 1911 and has been set for 6 o'clock hold with a 6" bull since, well 1911.

I didn't know when 1911s were made, so I appreciate this!

It makes little difference in a defensive encounter or in the combat meets particularly at closer distances.

Knowing where the rounds impact tend to help in getting hits, especially when we get into distance. Obviously now I know after shooting it and I could have known ahead of time by reading the manual, as was pointed out. I made an assumption and then experience and the people here corrected it.

The shooter and not the sights is responsible for where their bullet will hit and selects weight and type bullet to suit their intentions and preferences.

I never said otherwise.

Whether you intend to or not, your tone is starting to come off as hostile. I'm not sure why, it may just be my interpretation. I meant no offense in anything I've said.

The mods are free to close this. Thanks to everyone that set me straight.