Cocked & UNlocked carry; Safety only for pre-holster use?

[Futo Inu]

Roger C - you either didn't read my last post, or you have no logic, or both - teaching a pig to sing.

Jimmy Mac - I ASKED for someone to TELL me how they work - did YOU do that? NO you did not. So thanks for nothing. Someone else did, and I thank them. True that you cannot learn from someone who knows less. Neither can I. So that's why I asked. It's not rocket science. You could either choose to help, or make some snide preachy comment. You CHOSE the latter. Desire to learn? WTH - why do you think I ASKED?!? YOU DIDN'T answer me, did you? Go back and read your own post! You simply made a rude, utterly unhelpful comment. Can you not read your own writing? If you'll simply review, you'll see that Weaps was quite helpful and only then did you say "good post" about his, offering no help of your own. Now you're trying to hem and haw, but it's too late - you've proven that you are an are a plenary horse's a$$. You said "....it is obvious that most of us know more about your guns than you do." Really? Fantastic - that's why I'm asking questions. Some people actually help, unlike yourself. How am I supposed to learn - or did you just make up a rule that people can ONLY ask things which YOU don't already know? I think you misunderstand the purpose of a forum like this - it's not for everyone just to gloat about how they all know the same things. It's for people to ask and learn - it's a concept you should look into. And no, I've not made up my mind about anything - I'm gathering information at this point. So far, the people with reasons to back up their recommendations are fine the the idea. People like yourself who have only made bare statements without any reasons don't think it's a good idea. Hmmmm.

 

[RogerC]

Futo,

What, no threatening PM's ??????

You have over 3000 posts. That should mean that you have read a few also. It's inbelievable that for someone who has "been around" that long, to even comtemplate what you are saying. Or is is that NOTHING sinks in?

Leave 1911's to people who use them the way they were designed to be used.

Your "logic" will get someone killed.

TA


p.s. Oh, and yes, some pigs can sing.

 

[Futo Inu]

"What, no threatening PMs ?????"

Roger, much as you may like one, a pig cannot sing, and you cannot grasp logic, so what's the point?

OK, Roger, let's do this: You're insane for posting under the name Roger. I've given no reason, but neither have you. So go - refute that.

And you'll find that 90-95% of my posts are in the general or legal forums - I'm by no means an expert on guns themselves, though I've learned a few things - where does it say this is an expert - only forum? Does one have to know exactly how the brakes on a car work in order to safely use them to brake to avoid accidents? Of course not.

 

[Drjones]

Futo: Please, you should know better than that. No need to stoop to the level of name-calling. Someone with your number of posts should know better than that. Name-calling only shows poorly on you, and will get this thread locked down quick.

That said, it seems like we have a couple metallic kitties on our hands!!! :barf:

Roger and Jimmy: You have still failed to refute my statements in a cogent, logical manner. Or in any manner, actually. All you two have done is to insult Futo and myself, and to make unspecific, emotional statements with NO factual basis whatsoever.

I won't keep restating what I've said above. Just re-read my above posts and prove me wrong.


Thank you
Drjones

 

[Gomez]

Just thought I'd throw this out, RE: Guys who carry single action semi-autos cocked & unlocked:

The British SAS, when they issued GP-35s.

The Australian SAS, when they issued GP-35s.

A whole lot of Israeli guys, after they went from Condition 3 to putting the gun away to do something else, before they could put it back into Condition 3.

Personally, if my SASA has a functional, usuable thumb safety then I'm going to use it. If my SASA doesn't have one, I'd get one put on it. If it's an issue gun, and I can't modify it, I'd run it cocked and unlocked. But regardless, my thumb would be on top of the thumb safety once I established my firing grip, simply to ensure that the safety didn't get accidently bumped on during use.

It's not how I'd prefer to run my equipment, but it's not the end of the world either. Who would you prefer to rely on, some moron who uses his thumb safety, but has atrocious gunhandling skills or someone who never uses his safety but has appropriate gunhandling skills?

PS: John Mose Browning didn't include the thumb safety on his design after he incorporated the grip safety. It was the military that insisted on both. And for what it's worth Fairbairn and Sykes had the thumb safeties pinned in the off position on all of the semi-autos that they issued in Shanghai, relying completley on the grip safety and safe gunhandling.

 

[Old Fuff]

Interestingly, Browning’s first pistols didn’t have manual safeties (models 1900, 1902, and 1903 in .38 Colt Automatic). They were intended to be carried with the chamber loaded and the hammer down - then thumb-cocked for the first shot; or chamber empty, magazine loaded. I don’t believe anyone thought of carrying them chamber loaded/hammer cocked because revolvers of that day weren’t carried this way.

In 1903 Colt introduced a Browning designed .32 caliber pocket pistol that was aimed toward the civilian market where it was expected buyers would have less experience with handguns then those using the .38 models. Consequently the pocket model had both grip and manual safeties. The hammer couldn’t be lowered because it was concealed within the slide.

Browning’s prototype .45 pistols did not feature a manual or grip safety, but the army soon recommended (O.K., insisted) they be added.

I think an important difference between so-called double action pistols such as the Glock, SIG-Sauer, and others is that they are designed to be carried with the hammer or striker down while locked or blocked. Pulling the trigger through a relatively long and heavy trigger stroke lifts and then releases the hammer or striker and disengages the safety mechanism at the far end of the trigger stroke.

A single action pistol, such as the Colt 1911 or copies thereof are often carried with the hammer cocked, and therefore in theory are less safe then a handgun carried with the hammer at rest. The manual safety is provided as insurance (maybe necessary insurance, depending on one’s point of view) to compensate for the cocked hammer. If the pistol is carried with the hammer fully forward and down the manual safety cannot be engaged. No problem, there is no reason to engage it. The grip safety and firing pin lock (used only on certain models) provide extra insurance against an unintentional discharge.

I now go in peace……

 

[RogerC]

And you'll find that 90-95% of my posts are in the general or legal forums

Then you should understand the absurdity of what you propose doing. At least from a legal standpoint, if nothing else..

A first year law student would tear you to pieces in court if you stated that you intentionally left the safety off so you could "shoot quick". Think about that.

Would you cock a double action revolver, and then holster it, just so your first shot would theoretically be faster? I wouldn't.

Posting under my name makes me insane. that's nice. Great analogy. I take it you must be a college boy.

Intentionally bypassing a safety on a deadly weapon is perfectly OK in your book? Not mine. Have you ever actually looked at how LITTLE movement is required to activate the grip safety?

I would suggest posting your idea over at the 1911 forum, and see what they have to say. Some TFL'ers like to dance with the devil, when it comes to firearm safety, it would seem.

My PM reference was about your foul tirade from a few months back when you chose to enlighten me privately on some other matters.

I am glad both you and DrJ are far away from me and my family. We don't care much for wreckless handling of firearms around these parts.

 

[Brian Busch]

RogerC, you keep saying the 1911 was designed by JMB to be carried Con1, and thats the way it should be carried. However, JMB designed the gun WITHOUT a thumb safety; it was added by the Army.

 

[RogerC]

1911's have been carried cocked an locked for the better part of a century. You guys can mess with perfection, in search of some "magic" solution to a non-existent problem all you want.

The theory that it COULD be carried cocked and unlocked is sound. The safety of doing so is not. The grip safety only moves a very short distance before pulling or bumping the trigger will cause the pistol to fire.

In the heat of the moment you might blow your balls off, or a leg, or an innocent.

When I carry my 1911's the thumb safety is on, and resting in a groove in my holsters. It will stay on until I snick it off as it comes on target.


I cannot understand why anyone would want to bypass the thumb safety on a 1911. Or even fantasize about doing so. It is ludicrous, and invites trouble.

I will end my part in this wild fantasy by saying that I hope you stick to DA autos that have no external thumb safeties. There is a reason they have LONG trigger pulls for the first shot.

Good luck.

 

[TreeSquid]

Am I the only one who thinks that Futu is acting like a little kid here? "Safeties are for wussies! yeah! Cranial rectal inversion! You aren't capable of logic!" blah blah blah. I thought we were adults here.

In a hectic situation in which you fear for your life, the 4 rules may not be the first thing on your mind, you may put your finger on the trigger early because you feel that the faster you can shoot the baddie the better. meaning you may end up shooting yourself in the thigh as you fumble for your gun. Sound like fun?

If you practice drawing and disengaging your safety often, you'll just do it naturally, as you bring the gun to target. I don't see how you'd lose any time by doing that, it's not like the safety is way out of reach on a 1911.

So, basically, you disengage the primary safety and don't save yourself any time unless you aren't familar enough with the operation of your weapon and forget about the safety. If that's the case, you obviously didn't spend enough time practicing and shouldn't be carrying that gun. Seems to me that there's nothing to gain from carrying a 1911 cocked and unlocked.

Seriously, in a high-stress, fear-for-your-life situation, possibly while moving, you don't consider there any possibility that you could accidentally bump that trigger 1/8"? It's not worth it. I agree with the people who say that if you don't want to use it the way it was intended, don't use it at all. It's not a toy, it's a GUN, the consequences of "shortcuts" and harebrained ideas can be dire.

 

[Jimmy Mac]

He just wants us to tell him it is OK to carry his pistol cocked and unlocked.

He wants our opinions but only if it agrees with his opinion.

We should not state facts or give any lectures about gun design he can not understand.

 

[Drjones]

Well, opinions are utterly useless without any factual backing, which we are still waiting for.

 

[Drjones]

Treesquid: I have reposted a previous reply of mine below. Feel free to refute me, as no one else here has. Oh, and I mean with facts, not by whining about "poor JMB." The guy's dead. Leave him alone.

FWIW: I do not own a 1911. I plan on getting a Colt 1991 A1 at some point. I would carry it Cocked and Locked as it was intended. However, I fail to see a real problem with carrying it with the thumb safety disengaged, if one wishes.

Other than claiming how "poor JMB is turning in his grave" and making other emotional statements, the gun simply will not fire unless the grip safety is depressed AND the trigger is pulled.

I'm not saying that negates the need for a thumb safety, however I just still don't see the huge deal about carrying with it off.

All you who are so vehemently opposed to the mere thought of someone carrying a 1911 without the thumb safety say how it is so natural to you to flick off the safety as you are bringing it on target, and how you risk "mistakes" if you do NOT have the safety actuated.

Lemme see here...
-gun is holstered, safety on.
-Draw, as you are bringing it on target, disengage thumb safety
-point at target, gun is ready to shoot
-shoot if necessary

OR:

-Gun is holstered, safety off
-Draw gun, bring on target
-Point at target, gun is ready to shoot
-Shoot if necessary

HOW do these two methods differ so greatly???

I think the true problem doesn't lie in any combination of safeties, whether activated or not.

The problem is (or could POTENTIALLY be) with the SA trigger pull, or from a problem with keeping your finger off the trigger until you want to fire.

I still want to see a real reason, and real-life examples of how carrying a 1911 with the thumb safety off is such a recipe for disaster.

 

[RogerC]

Astonishing. Absolutely astonishing.

This thread can cause severe brain damage, as it appears to have done.

Are you people for real?

Carrying in that manner is asking for trouble because you are intentionally disengaging a safety that is a device meant to prevent ND's.

So I guess you would call yourselves "The ND Advocates"?

You ask for factual "evidence"? The only evidence needed here is common sense. Have any?

Explain, to me DR J, how you would defend yourself in a court of law, if you were involved in a shooting?

No judge or jury will buy into your curiousity about intentionally disabling safeties. You would be painted as a trigger happy zealot, and you would lose. Big time.

Stick to plastic.

 

[Drjones]

Carrying in that manner is asking for trouble because you are intentionally disengaging a safety that is a device meant to prevent ND's.

There we go. End of story. I rest my case, your honor.

There, you just stated clearly that the only thing between you and a ND is a manual safety on the weapon itself.

Anyone with any REAL knowledge of firearms knows that the two most important, and the two only REAL firearms safeties are:

1) Your head

2) Trigger finger

You clearly lack control of both of these, since you so desperately need a thumb safety to keep you from offing yourself and others.

Therefore, YOU are the negligent and unsafe one.

You DO know that your finger is to be kept off the trigger until you want to fire, don't you??? Apparently not...

Tell me, HOW do you keep from having ND's every single day with guns that lack any sort of manual safety, like Glocks, for example?

 

[RogerC]

So, you DR J, must believe that the thumb safety has no purpose whatsoever? Really?

Where did it say that the ONLY thing between me an an ND is the thumb safety? It says A device. Not the ONLY device.

Where did I say that I was putting my finger on the trigger before I was on target? Nowhere. In your dreams.

Never heard of any LEO's that shot themselves in the leg or foot with their Glocks because of improper holsters and techniques?

I guess you don't get out much.

And for your defense in case you shoot someone? On, yeah, it'd be like this..."Yes your honor, I intentionally had my gun in the holster with the safety off."......then what would you say after that? Right before he get s to the part where he says "guilty." ???

I feel sorry for the people at your firing range. They'll probably see you carried out someday on a stretcher because of your ignorance.

 

[Futo Inu]

Treesquid, where did I say safeties are for wussies? Look for that then get back with me. RogerC is, for whatever reason, apparently incapable of logic on this particular point. And I called Jimmy Mac an ass for insulting me and implying that no one ought to post about anything he already knows. Jimmy Mac DOES have logic and knows some things - he's just apparently too good or too busy to share what he knows, so he just insults instead. Jimmy Mac certainly can't assert here that the 1911 is unsafe cocked and unlocked, because of his using this specific example in the contentious Steyr thread currently running, of an XD and 1911 being the same for practical purposes in having a firing pin (or striker) safety, as distinguished from the alleged dangerous Steyr - I actually think he may be right about that issue, but he proves my point in stating that. If a manual would be redundant on an XD, then it's equally redundant on an SA, FOR PURPOSES OF CARRY WHILE IN THE HOLSTER. And as mentioned, with a high-enough-quality safetey between the ears, outside of the holster is taken care of, regardless of trigger pull.

No, certainly I wouldn't want someone like RogerC using an SA without a manual safety - he apparently believes he's too un-conscientious to do that, and I have no reason to disagree with him. I and others, with good training however, are no less safe, seems to me, doing that than we would be with a pistol like an XD. Roger seems to be the king of projection - "I'm not safe doing that, so certainly no one else could be." :barf:

RogerC, at least 3 clearly knowledgeable people have already posted here and shown you that:

1) The gun was DESIGNED BY JMB without a manual safety; and
2) Actual examples of elite gov't agencies using cocked and unlocked SA carry.

So, I submit you've been proven wrong beyond any shadow of a doubt, and you still have yet to provide a shred of evidence or backing for your "this is the way it is and anyone who doesn't agree is insane" assertion. If a gun had 5 additional safeties over the ones already on a 1911, would you use them all? If you wouldn't, then would you berate someone who chose to use all of them? Would you expect someone to berate you if you used all but 1? All but 2? All but 3? And if you'd bother to read my posts, you'd discover that I don't give two spits what a lawyer would do to me in court as long as I'm alive. Material things are irrelevant if you're dead. So I wish JMB were here so you could tell him that his design stunk, but the beauracrats in the Pentagon knew better than he did. Are YOU a beauracrat, by any chance?

 

[Drjones]

Well, in addition to the your head, trigger finger, proper technique, the grip safety, and the trigger itself, the 1911 also has the thumb safety. You IMPLY that the thumb safety is the ONLY thing keeping you from having ND's when you say things like "Carrying in that manner is asking for trouble because you are intentionally disengaging a safety that is a device meant to prevent ND's. "

Where did it say that the ONLY thing between me an an ND is the thumb safety? It says A device. Not the ONLY device.

True. It is one device, at the end of a VERY long list. See the beginning of this post. You apparently have no control over:

a) Your brain, which controls your bodily movements
b) Your trigger finger, as in IT SHOULD BE OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU WANT TO FIRE
c) The grip safety, which unless depressed, will NOT allow the gun to fire

Again, "you are intentionally disengaging a safety that is a device meant to prevent ND's. "

This means that the three other safeties I just listed are not functioning for you, therefore, the ONLY device left in place between you and an ND is the thumb safety.

Never heard of any LEO's that shot themselves in the leg or foot with their Glocks because of improper holsters and techniques?

So what? Look around here...you'll find tons of anectdotes, news stories, and personal experience from OTHER LEO's stating how just because one is an LEO does NOT mean that one is adept with firearms in any way.

 

[RogerC]

Life as an Ostrich.

See above.

DR J and Futo, you guys would play with fire to prove your point. In my book, that makes you both ignorant and unsafe.

In case you hadn't heard......when a lot of Law Enforcement Agencies switched to Glocks , at first their were some ND's caused by officers either having their finger within the triggerguard when holstering or by snagging the trigger on something.

Futo, show me an agency that carries a cocked and unlocked 1911.

Show me.

If you do not understand the 1911, Learn it or leave it alone. You will hurt someone else, or your own dumb #ss.

 

[Futo Inu]

Your last post sums up nicely your lack of any substance to your "argument" - yes, you are indeed an ostrich to blindly adhere to old traditions without REASONS. I'll bet you believed every bit of Reefer Madness too, didn't you?

"Futo, show me an agency that carries a cocked and unlocked 1911."

What part of this:

"RogerC, at least 3 clearly knowledgeable people have already posted here and shown you that:

1) The gun was DESIGNED BY JMB without a manual safety; and
2) Actual examples of elite gov't agencies using cocked and unlocked SA carry. "

didn't you understand? Open your eyes and LOOK at the thread, man. You're wanting me to waste bandwidth by repeating exactly what the clearly expert contributors to this thread have said, in showing you the utter fallacy of your blind adherence to ONE perfectly valid way of utilizing the design (and the best way, for most people). To be sure, as mentioned, I do want YOU to use them all, especially if you're in my neighborhood. One can always re-engage the safety before drawing if one has time, and should, but this requires an additional, conscious thought process, which means your life probably isn't on the line. When your life IS on the life, as few of deliberate thought processes as possible should be the rule. I understand that disengaging the manual safety becomes second nature quite easily, but if one were to "cross-train" with DAs, every little bit of congruity between on your side could just help in saving your life. You still have yet to answer this question "Under what conditions can a series 80 1911 fire when holstered?" And Jimmy Mac, I notice you only pipe in to add an insult, as is your custom. I'd sure like to hear from you on the subject, since in the Steyr thread you demonstrated how unsafe they are, quite different from the specific examples YOU gave in that thread of the XD and series 80 being in the same class of having the firing pin/striker redundant safety. I'd sure like to see you reconcile that - oh, nevermind, you have nothing to offer but insults - I remember...